Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?

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Offline Andy Battaglia

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Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« on: May 17, 2010, 12:13:24 AM »
I have brought up this topic previously and have had no luck finding any thal minor who has been tested or was willing to be tested for Pulmonary Hypertension (PHT or PAH). It is well established that both thal intermedias (prevalent in non-transfusing intermedia) and thal majors often develop PHT. I believe that the same causes are responsible for PHT in intermedia and major, among them low nitric oxide (NO) levels and low oxygen levels. Years of low NO lead to lowered flexibility of the artery between the lungs and the heart and this is a known cause of PHT in thal. This leads to many of the symptoms we constantly also hear from thal minors, including tiredness and fatigue, breathlessness and poor circulation.

Even mild PHT causes symptoms, so I am still hoping we can find a few minors who have regular symptoms who will ask their doctors to be tested for PHT. I want to know if anyone is found to have even mild PHT. Minors are ignored by doctors and if I could bring some reports of PHT in minors to certain doctors that I regularly engage at conferences, it may serve to get some investigation of this moving ahead. Oldthalgal, Preety, anyone? I must add that PHT is easily treatable with sildenafil citrate.

There is also one more factor I would like to investigate and this would be the experience of anyone who has ever used sildenafil citrate, which is better known as Viagra. This drug was first developed to combat high blood pressure, so please be aware that it does have a use beyond its more well known use. Since this may be something people would want kept confidential, if you don't want to mention this on the forum, please feel free to send me a PM. Your confidence is always guaranteed. What I want to know is if any thal minor has had the experience of suddenly feeling better while using sildenafil. Less fatigue, more ability to function physically or less breathlessness? This could be of great benefit to thal minors in general, especially as they age, as these symptoms do appear to worsen as one gets older.

Please help with this. I believe this may be the key to solving many of the problems of thal minor.
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 08:26:44 AM »
what about l arginin administration for thal minors as a way to preserve NO pathway? ?

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Offline Zaini

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 08:37:26 AM »
Andy,

Pardon my ignorance,but how can one get tested for PHT?

Zaini.
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Offline Andy Battaglia

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 02:03:05 PM »
Mohamed,

You are correct. L-carntine, L-arginine and combinations of Alpha Lipoic Acid and Acetyl L-Carnitine, or L-arginine and lysine are all possibilities to enhance NO production.

Zaini,

there are various tests used to diagnose PHT. A good overview can be seen at the Mayo Clinic site.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pulmonary-hypertension/ds00430/dsection=tests-and-diagnosis
Andy

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Offline Dori

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 09:52:24 PM »
i have heard they got these tests in my hospital now. Untill a year ago I never heard of it. What problems does this cause?

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Offline Andy Battaglia

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 11:28:32 PM »
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pulmonary-hypertension/DS00430

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Definition
By Mayo Clinic staff

Pulmonary hypertension is a type of high blood pressure that affects only the arteries in the lungs and the right side of your heart.

Pulmonary hypertension begins when tiny arteries in your lungs, called pulmonary arteries, and capillaries become narrowed, blocked or destroyed. This makes it harder for blood to flow through your lungs, which raises pressure within the arteries in your lungs. As the pressure builds, your heart's lower right chamber (right ventricle) must work harder to pump blood through your lungs, eventually causing your heart muscle to weaken and eventually fail completely.

Pulmonary hypertension is a serious illness that becomes progressively worse and is sometimes fatal. Although pulmonary hypertension isn't curable, treatments are available that can help lessen symptoms and improve your quality of life.

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Symptoms
By Mayo Clinic staff

The signs and symptoms of pulmonary hypertension in its early stages may not be noticeable for months or even years. As the disease progresses, symptoms become worse.

Pulmonary hypertension symptoms include:

    * Shortness of breath (dyspnea), initially while exercising and eventually while at rest
    * Fatigue
    * Dizziness or fainting spells (syncope)
    * Chest pressure or pain
    * Swelling (edema) in your ankles, legs and eventually in your abdomen (ascites)
    * Bluish color to your lips and skin (cyanosis)
    * Racing pulse or heart palpitations

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Complications
By Mayo Clinic staff

Pulmonary hypertension can lead to a number of complications, including:

    * Right-sided heart failure (cor pulmonale). In cor pulmonale, your heart's right ventricle becomes enlarged and has to pump harder than usual to move blood through narrowed or blocked pulmonary arteries. At first, the heart tries to compensate by thickening its walls and expanding the chamber of the right ventricle to increase the amount of blood it can hold. But this thickening and enlarging works only temporarily, and eventually the right ventricle fails from the extra strain.
    * Blood clots. Clots help stop bleeding after you've been injured. But sometimes clots form where they're not needed. A number of small clots or just a few large ones dislodge from these veins and travel to the lungs, leading to a form of pulmonary hypertension that is reversible with time and treatment. Having pulmonary hypertension makes it more likely you'll develop clots in the small arteries in your lungs, which is dangerous if you already have narrowed or blocked blood vessels.
    * Arrhythmia. Irregular heartbeats (arrhythmias) from the upper or lower chambers of the heart are complications of pulmonary hypertension. These can lead to palpitations, dizziness or fainting and can be fatal.
    * Bleeding. Pulmonary hypertension can lead to bleeding into the lungs and coughing up blood (hemoptysis). This is another potentially fatal complication.

Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

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Offline Zaini

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 07:25:16 AM »
Is it possible to have PHT if you almost always have low blood pressure?
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Offline Andy Battaglia

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 04:59:28 PM »
PHT is not high blood pressure. It is high blood pressure only in the artery between the heart and lungs, and has nothing to do with hypertension.
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 10:22:55 PM »
Thats interesting. I have thalassemia minor and also G6PD deficiency. I was taking N Acetyl Cysteine to increase my glutathione levels because G6PD deficiency causes glutathione levels to drop. But I ve read that NAC can cause PHT. Thats because NAC is tricking the body into thinking it has hypoxia.
You think I should discontinue taking NAC?

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Offline Andy Battaglia

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 11:57:09 PM »
Hi Karol and welcome,

The study that made the claim that N Acetyl Cysteine can lead to PHT is very questionable and contradicts what has actually been observed in humans. I would discount its mixed results. I usually won't quote from blogs but this one gives an honest view of that study.

http://blog.xtend-life.com/warren_matthews_blog/is-n-acetyl-cysteine-nac-safe.html

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Is N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) Safe?

N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) is a stable form of the essential amino acid L-cysteine. Cysteine is a precursor for glutathione, an important antioxidant in the body. Cysteine also serves as a major sulfur source for many body components. It also may help with Alzheimer’s and also eye health.

However, recently some researchers at the University of Virginia Health System have found some potential side effects which may be troubling for some people who use this nutrient in high doses.  But…they are not sure, because these potential side effects have only been found in rats and may not occur in humans…and they did not occur in all rats.

The potential side effect is that NAC can form a red blood cell-derived molecule called nitrosothiol.  This could result in your body thinking that it has an oxygen shortage, which in turn can lead to pulmonary arterial hypertension (PAH).

Because it is likely that some of the media will jump on this ‘bandwagon’ I thought that I should mention a few important points about this first so any negative reports don’t raise any concerns for you.

1. The doses in their experiments were VERY high.  In fact, I sometimes wonder why the researchers do these experiments and then publish the results because it really is quite meaningless in the real world, unless they are trying to discredit a particular nutrient.  Almost every substance when taken in excess can cause a side effect.

2. Many body builders take very high doses of NAC.  Up to 2000mgs of more a day in 3 - 4 x 500mgs capsules.  I am unaware of any one having the side effect referred to by the researchers.

3. NAC is a valuable nutrient, and a safe one.  For more info and references concerning this please click here

Even though there is no evidence of any side effects in humans, as I say frequently you should never ingest any single ingredient in high doses.  They should always be combined with other nutrients and co-factors.

Unfortunately there is and always will be a group of consumers that feel more is better, and so when they hear some good results about a particular nutrient they want to take large doses of it and of course the manufacturers and marketers respond and give it to them.

Bottom line…NAC is SAFE. We use it in our formulas but in low amounts.  For example, we only use 35mgs of it in our Total Balance and that is with the full dose of 6 tablets per day.  It is an important nutrient and it plays a valuable role.
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Checking http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69310.cfm from Sloan Kettering, there is much mention about the value of NAC is respiratory ailments.

I find that most of the highly publicized studies that attempt to discredit various nutrients are questionable in their results. Meta analysis of other studies are the worst and there have been a couple attempts to discredit vitamin E in this manner. It's amazing seeing how multiple studies show positive benefits to vitamin E, but somehow when all these positive studies are looked at together, they become a negative. This is absurd. When you dig a little deeper into some studies, you find the results cannot be supported.

By the way, are you a two gene carrier for G6PD?
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 04:57:59 AM »
Good to know. I am a man, so just 1 gene.

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Offline janco

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 03:42:06 AM »
Andy,

I only have a presumed diagnosis of thalassemia (probably hemoglobin h) by my hematologist - he says we can't know for sure until my iron deficiency is resolved.  But I do have pulmonary hypertension and the  severity strongly correlates with hemolysis.  The more stable my red blood cells, the less severe the PH.  

I have also wondered about the nitric oxide correlation.  I can't take sildenafil citrate because it exacerbates another genetic condition (porphyria) but I have found the the supplement Pycnogenol which has been proven to increase NO helps a great deal.  

I'm going to get tested for familial PAH, one form of pulmonary hypertension.  If that is negative it will just be considered idiopathic PAH.  

One thing I found when researching this was that transfusions can actually be fatal for someone with NO deficiency.  The molecule that carries nitric oxide, s-nitrohemoglobin, diminshes 70% in the first day of storage and keeps declining.  That makes sense to me since my transfusion 2 years ago was two units of blood that was 3 weeks old.  It caused severe heart failure and I almost didn't make it.

Jan
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 10:50:42 PM by janco »

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Offline Andy Battaglia

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 02:46:35 PM »
Hi Jan,

We have an article about the NO content of stored blood at http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=1261.msg10011#msg10011

This seems to be an area that should be getting major attention. How to add NO into blood that will be stored? This would have a profound impact on the value of transfusions.

Has your doctor considered DNA sequencing to determine your thal status?
Andy

All we are saying is give thals a chance.

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Offline janco

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 05:13:23 PM »
Andy,

Here's the link to the article on adding NO to blood.  It wqs done in 2007 and I'm not sure if it's been tried for humans yet:

http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/Hematology/6918

I'm seeing a genetics counselor at our university medical center next month but am a bit confused about the testing.  My symptoms and bloodwork match exactly the hemoglobin H with an iron deficiency.  All of the contraindicated things listed are triggers for - in fact I don't tolerate any legumes right now, but when my Hgb is higher I can handle them without too much hemolysis.  I do have Heinz body inclusions and at first we thought maybe G6PD deficiency but my red blood cells only live a short span so the enzyme is actually elevated and we can't really tell.  My electrophoresis shows 98.1% HbA, 1.9% HbA2, and no variants.  Is HgH considered a variant?  My hematololgist isn't convinced the test is very accurate for me and seems to think I have some sort of alpha thalassemia. 

Oral iron does nothing for me and even when I had a transfusion my ferritin only got up to 12 at the highest with 2 units.  I don't have any bleeding problems but I do have some ongoing low-level viral infections (EBV, CMV and Parvo) that really mess with me.  When those titers go down, the hemolysis stabilizes and my Hgb can get up to normal although my ferritin never does.  I think I'm going to try a small, slow dose of Venofer and see if it improves anything.  My reticulocyte count is normal but goes up and down.  We've had many iron IV reactions in my family so I'm a bit concerned - free iron can be oxidative stress, too, but I know iron sucrose is much safer than iron dextran.

One thing that baffles me is my ancestry....my lines are almost all from England/Scotland.  Way back there are some Turkish and Mediterranean ties, and my parents' lines do cross a few times. 

Thanks for any input -

Jan

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Offline Moik

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Re: Is Pulmonary Hypertension Common in Thalassemia Minors?
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2010, 05:45:10 PM »
Not sure what the test involves but about 8 years ago I had echo cardio gram  and several of those tests with the eletrodes to test electrical flow
Would this be enough to detect PHC? In the past ive had a racing heart etc but its not as bad anymore(most likely due to allergies now that i take antihistamine)
But of course the fatigue and occasional breathing issues do occur..

no chest pain to speak of

 

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