Thalassemia Patients and Friends

Discussion Forums => Iron Chelation Corner => Topic started by: komal on December 30, 2009, 01:14:11 PM

Title: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on December 30, 2009, 01:14:11 PM
HI,
   My ferritin    level  is  very  high  am  using  ASUNRA  1000mg  per  day.It  only  remove  iron  from  organs.I  am  scared   how  to  remove  iron  from  liver  and  heart??Even  dont  know  how   much  iron  deposited  there  as  Ferriscane  is  not  available  here. :(.Kindly  guide  me  which  combination  is  more  effective???
           komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Tedi on December 30, 2009, 01:47:17 PM
Hi, I think its good to take ferriprox, it removes from heart and from all body.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on December 30, 2009, 02:55:44 PM
Hi Komal,

I mentioned this in my PM to you, but I would like to bring it up for the benefit of all. Doses of Exjade (Asunra) have been shown to be safe up to 40 mg/kg daily. This high dose is normally used only with those whose ferritin is far too high, as is the case here. With Komal's weight, he could be taking 1440 mg daily. This would clear the iron faster. Of course, this must be done with a doctor's approval and under a doctor's supervision.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on December 30, 2009, 06:11:32 PM
Hi Komal,

what is your ferritin level right now? I'm just asking  to see which chelation therapy would be better in your case.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on December 30, 2009, 06:22:50 PM
He's higher than 10,000.

The Standard of Care Guidelines have this to say for high ferritin and Exjade.

Quote
After starting therapy, increase the
dose by 5 to 10 mg/kg every three to six months based
on iron stores. A dose of 20 mg/kg per day is effective in
establishing negative iron balance in some patients.
However, a higher dose of 30 to 35 mg/kg per day is
usually required to establish negative iron balance.The dose may be
increased to 30 mg/kg per day, and in certain cases, to
40 mg/kg per day
.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on December 30, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
Andy,

I would suggest aggressive desferal-ferriprox combination therapy for Komal, but since his ferritin is so high I imagine he does not comply and that's why he is on Asunra.

Komal,

you must rush with chelation...even get an IV desferal in the hospital. What does your doctor say?

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on December 30, 2009, 08:15:47 PM
Lena,

I think it may have been in a PM, but Komal mentioned that other chelators have not suited him, so I think raising the Asunra dose is the best way to proceed right now. I agree that IV desferal would be best, but if he can't take it, he has to find another solution.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on December 31, 2009, 07:30:52 AM
HI Komal,
 :welcome2 (yeah i know its too late to say this :grin anyway ) .....  did u ever tried Combination Therapy ??? ... Desferal + Ferriprox or Desferal + Exjade  ??  ... in this National Thal Conference Doctors was talking abt Exjade+Desferal Combination therapy .. i m not sure when they would b starting this but i heard in a  session abt this ....  My Fe was in same range in ur  is (more than 13000 at once :grin ) , but now its within 1000 , i m still on Combination therapy (Desferal + Ferriprox )  ...  did u ever tried this combination ??? , if yes then, if u dont mind to share , why You quited to that and moved on Exjade Alone  ?? ..... wud u like to mention this all :) ... BEst of luck  , hope your Fe will b in safe range in soon future :) ...

Best Regards
Take Care
Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Zaini on December 31, 2009, 07:42:00 AM
Guys,

Since Komal is not correcting it herself,i will,she is a girl :) .

Komal,

Would you like to tell us what chelators have you used in past? And what happened while you were on them? why did you switch to Asunra? Since you go to NIBD i am assuming you are under care of either Dr Tahir Shamsi or Dr Saqib Ansari?

Zaini.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on December 31, 2009, 07:58:18 AM

What Zaini and Umair asked, I would like to know too.

Komal,

could you give us all a little more input as to your situation?
Thank you,

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 01, 2010, 05:43:35 PM
Hi,
   Hope  you  all  will be  fine :smiley
 Zaini you  r  right  they  suppose  me  boy.
In  past  i  was  using  desferal  but  not  on  regular   basis.When  oral  chelator  Kelfer  was  introduced   doctor  advised   me  to  use  it,after  using  Kelfer  it  cause  nausea    vomiting    abdominal  discomfort  and  Hb  level   was  also  getting  down.Same  thing  happnd  after  using  Ferriprox.I  never  use  combination  therapy.
Doctor  suggest  me IV  desferal  but  i  takes  hours  and  hours   :sadnope  many  times  i  did  but  in  vacations  only.Am  very  comfortable  with  Asunra.
Please  you  people  advise  what  else  I  should  do  to  reduce  iron  faster??
I  will  visit  doctor  on  tuesday  5th January.
Zaini  am  under  care  of  Dr Saqib  Ansari.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 01, 2010, 05:54:52 PM
Komal,

In my opinion - but it's only my opinion - Asunra alone will not speed things up. You need something stronger than that, more agressive and that is combination therapy or IV desferal.
Talk with your doctor about IV desferal and try to do it. This will be better than Asunra. Now we are talking about make things fast, not about being comfortable. Your priority should be to bring fe down as soon as possible.You can do it but you will need to try harder.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 01, 2010, 05:56:33 PM
Komal,

One simple thing is to arrange to take IV desferal while you are transfusing. Lisa did this with every transfusion. She also went in weekly for IV desferal between transfusions. Unfortunately, in her later years, taking desferal subcutaneously became too painful for Lisa to do often enough to keep her iron level down. Please consider adding desferal on a regular basis. It is wonderful for cleaning out the free iron that is in your blood.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Zaini on January 02, 2010, 06:17:45 AM
Komal,

What i was able to understand through your post is that you never had any side effects with desferal,so why don't you start using it again in combination with Asunra,i know Dr Tahir Shamsi's patients are using it,why don't you ask Dr Saqib about that,once your ferritin is lowered you won't need to be on desferal,but for right now,this might be the answer.

Zaini.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 02, 2010, 05:42:47 PM
HI,
  I  never  had  any  sort  of  side  effects  with  desferal.
Andy 
  Can  I  use  Asunra+desferal   combination??what  would  be  the  right dosage  of  desferal   according  to  my  ferritin??
Today   I  went  Aga  Khan  Lab  for  SF test  report  will  come  Tuesday  evening.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 02, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
Komal,

I always think these meds should be taken under a doctor's supervision, so I think you should discuss this with your doctor to make sure you have proper monitoring. I do know people who have used both successfully and it does work to get the iron down much faster. I would suggest at least two nights each week with desferal and more if possible. The two chelators complement each other, with the desferal cleaning up the iron in the blood. Your ferritin level will drop much faster if you use this combination.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on January 02, 2010, 07:34:41 PM
Komal,
in addition to wat Andy has said : desferal doasge isn't something to b sugested on Ferritin level , Fe level does matter a little bit in it , but weight is the main factor to sugest the right dose for patient .....

@Andy,
m i right  ??  plz correct me if i m wrong ....


Best Regards
Take Care
Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 02, 2010, 07:46:24 PM
Desferal dosage is based on weight but the dosage can vary depending on the iron load of the patient. The absolute maximum used is 6 grams daily and this is used only under extreme circumstances when the heart is in great danger. 2 grams is often sufficient.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 05, 2010, 03:41:34 PM
Hi, Every one
   Today  I  got  my  ferritin  report  and  ferritin  level  is
        SF  13689 ng/ml
Urea  and  Creatinine  report
Urea     36mg%
creatinine     0.6mg%
LFT  Report           RESULT               Ref  Range
Bilirubin   Total      3.3mg/dl               0-1.0mg/dl
Bilirubin  Direct      1.9mg/dl               0-0.25mg/dl
Alkaline phosphatase  222U/L             64-306
SGPT                    63U/L                 F 0-36u/l
Doctor  increase  my  Asunra  dosage  from  1000mg  to  1200mg  he  also  prescribed  some  other  tests.
       Random  Blood  sugar
       Ca++
       Serunm  Zinc  level  & Serum  Magnesium  level
       PO4
       Alkaline  phosphate
       Vit  D3  level
       I PTH
       ECHO  Cardiography
Its  all  about  today's  meeting  with  doctor.
Andy  please  give  your  suggestion.
Komal



 

         
         

     





Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 05, 2010, 05:51:04 PM
Komal,


I will add my opinion here, before Andy's:

I would replace Asunra monotherapy chelation with combination therapy, especially that of desferal-ferriprox. What's more, IV desferal along with ferriprox. That is what is most needed, in your case now.That is what we, in our Thalassemia Unit, would do.When a thal's ferritin is as high as 5000 and more, he/she is admitted to the hospital for a week or so on IV desferal together with ferriprox.

Why don't you ask your doctor about it?

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 05, 2010, 06:18:19 PM
Lena
  Ferriprox  not  suits  me  i  can  not  take  it  more  than  the  3  days  I  started  it  with  very  low  dosage  just  1 tablet.I  have  to  face  joints  pain,nausea  etc.Otherwise  ferriprox+desferal  is  best  combination.
Second  option  is   that  I  quit  Asunra  and  go for  desferal  24 hours  chelation.Am  I  right???
komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 05, 2010, 06:32:06 PM
Komal,

I didn't know you cannot take ferriprox. I am sorry. Next option -- maybe the only one -- is desferal together with Asunra and we are talking about desferal 7 days a week.
How do you feel to be admitted to the hospital for a week and get IV desferal? Have you talked about it with your doctor? I think you have mentioned something about this before.

Lena
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 05, 2010, 07:05:18 PM
Komal,

I think desferal needs to be added to your chelation. I agree that if it is possible for you, a week or two of IV desferal would be a big help. Umair was able to take the IV desferal home with him. I don't know if that's possible for you, but if so, it would mean being able to take IV outside of the hospital setting. Even taking desferal subq at home would be a help right now. You need to get that ferritin level down so that the Asunra can do a better job of cleaning iron out of your organs. Desferal works well at removing the iron from the bloodstream, so desferal and Asunra will complement the effect of each other. The other tests the doctor ordered are all good and will help to further guide your treatment. The echo test will give some indication of your heart function so this may help to determine how much urgency is needed right now.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on January 05, 2010, 07:16:23 PM
Komal,
i want to add sumthing here under this topic :
when i startedd Ferriprox i xperienced the same nausea , stomac discomfort  .. i stopped taking it many times and started again too :grin but finally when decided not to stop it then i kept taking that and with time side-effects disapeare away ...

when one of my thal ceter's frined started ferriprox he xperienced  the same problemes , he asked me that he is gonna quit taking this , i told him to keep taking for atleast a month IF his Counts r stable n not it downish trend (i m talking abt WBCs ) .... now , it has been more than a year since his taking Ferrriprox .... Same happened to another friend ..... all i wana say is that if ur not experience any serious side-effects like WBCs  Then if u give it a try for a lil long time mayb it suit u .... its just a sugestion based on my personal experience , m  not saying to try this without ur doctor's advice but i think u shud tallk to ur dctor abt it /.... i m saying this bcoze my personal experience with Combination therapy ( desferal + ferriprox ) were super ,, my Fe was exactly in the same range ur is ... more than 13000 .... it will take time to come down , but surely if u r determined well then one day it will b within normal range :) .. best of luck :) ...

Best Regards
Take Care
Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 05, 2010, 07:26:07 PM

What is better example than Umair?
And I totally agree with Umair---maybe you have not given Ferriprox a chance. You, above all, can tell  if you can try it again. Whatever you do,Komal,please act fast.You can lower your ferritin level, that's for sure,but only if you try hard as Umair said.
I would go for IV desferal in hospital for at least one week, If I were in your shoes, and then desferal at home 7/7  with the highest dosage allowed according to doctor's instructions.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on January 05, 2010, 07:49:57 PM
Komal ,
As Andy Has mentioned abt IV desferal at home .. i never been admit in hospital for chelation :grin IV , Subq i used to Chelate both way and yes at home .... its not difficult if desferal is completely suitable and give's nno Side-effect to u ,  ...  in my thal center ther r some patient who r at 5 days a week chelation plan , they wear 's pump on their biceps and do everything normaly , a boy oes to his shop after wearing pump  ( actuly to of my friends ggoes to their shops after wearing pump)... so , pump is not sumthing that wil bother u i ur routine work , if u r worried bcozeiof its drop reminder beep u may turn that off too :grin ,............


Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Gabri on January 05, 2010, 08:27:32 PM
Hi Komal,

when I had ferririn over 10000 Ferriprox and Exjade wasn't available. During this time I had serial problems with my hart end liver. So we start Desferal i.v. 18g in 24 hours 6 Days a week. Within a few month feritin level dropped down. Desferal dosage was reduced first to 12 g than to 8 and at last to 6 g. Within a year feritin was almost in normal range (200).

If I reached the goal with monotherapy you can achieved much sooner with combined therapy.

God bless you
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 05, 2010, 08:32:56 PM
Thanks  ANDY ,LENA,UMAIR
    You  people  are  right  I  have  to  go  with  desferal  at   least  1  week,In  my  case  Asunra  is  not  much  helpful  as  compare  to  desferal.Tomorrow  I  will  go  to  hospital  for  IV then  I  will  bring  desferal  at  home.
komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 06, 2010, 04:56:30 AM
I am happy for you, Komal!

If you persist and follow the right path,you will soon lower your ferritin.

Please keep us posted.

Good luck,

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Manal on January 06, 2010, 05:16:17 AM

Good luck Komal, be sure that we are all backing and supporting you and i am sure you are going to make it soon. :hugfriend

manal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on January 06, 2010, 06:51:17 AM
Good Luck Komal! We are here for support. So you aren't alone in this fight.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Zaini on January 06, 2010, 09:50:21 AM
Good luck Komal  :hugfriend

I am happy you are starting IV desferal,that will help for sure .

Zaini.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 06, 2010, 12:33:11 PM
Thanks   all  of  you  how  sincerely  you  people  encourages  me   like  family  members :smiley
I  always  need   your  worthy  advices.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Canadian_Family on January 06, 2010, 01:52:33 PM
Hi Komal,

I didn't participate in the discussion but certainly was reading regularly and quiet concerned with your ferritin level. There is no stopping when you have the will, the group believes you have the will, so keep fighting. Please keep us updated.

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 10, 2010, 07:18:40 AM
Hi everyone,
       Since   last  night    am  on  IV  desferal  chelation,I  put  5  desferal  in normal  saline.
after  1  hour  I  took  250mg   Vit  C  tablet,I  would  continue  it  24 hours.
One  thing  I  want  to  ask  along  with  desferal  can  I  take  my  other  medicines  like  Vit  D  calcium  etc???
Andy  please  reply.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 10, 2010, 07:22:34 AM
Komal,

I'm happy to hear you're taking IV desferal. It will surely help.
It is safe to take supplements while chelating.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 10, 2010, 08:41:18 AM


What wonderful news, Komal!
You'll see you have made the right decision.

I agree with Andy, it is safe to take any other medication while chelating.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on January 10, 2010, 09:29:42 AM
Quote
after  1  hour  I  took  250mg   Vit  C  tablet
Andy,
wat do usay abt that ( Vit-C ) ??  i think she dont need that at this stage when her S.Fe is high .. 

Komal,
S.fe show's the iron in blood stream , and your S.fe is high  ... desferal bind's iron from blood stream .. vit-c release's the iron from organs to blood , thats why doctors advice's vit-c soon after chelation started with desferal ... [bgcolor=#ffff00]ur S.fe level is high so (as far as i know) u dont need vit-c to release more iron from organs to blood stream .. i think it wud't b good for u at this stage ...[/bgcolor]

please read these posts :
http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=2042.msg26732#msg26732
http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=2042.msg23453#msg23453

-----------------------------------------------------
Quote from http://www.rxlist.com/desferal-drug.htm (http://www.rxlist.com/desferal-drug.htm) regarding Vit-C with desferal

sad that i find it out after i i've been taking Vit-C 250mg since my fe level came 9000

Note : all wat i m saying is my personal opinion and nothing more than that , its my view  you may agree or disagree to it ...

ps : ( i wanted to write the S.fe level instead of writing "high" here but i dont know why i canceled to mention that and deleted that from everywhere i mentioned that in this post, once after writing.)


Best Regards
Take Care
Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 10, 2010, 10:00:19 AM


I think Umair is right--not to take vit c in this high level. Let's hear what Andy says, too.

As to not mentioning the fe level, well, Umair you are so discreet and sensitive!

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on January 10, 2010, 11:11:45 AM
Lena,
actuly , i m trying to be carefull when posting, bcoze i think that i weren't been careful in past and i think that me n others  have paid for that ....  :grin ... that is the reason why m posting only when i feel that there's need of my post .... :grin ....

Umair.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Manal on January 10, 2010, 03:18:32 PM
Yes i agree with Umair too but i do remember Andy saying that a max dose of 250mg will be okay, but let see if this applies on high ferritin

manal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 10, 2010, 07:46:02 PM
Komal,

The others have brought up the point about vitamin C. Vitamin C does increase the amount of iron chelated by desferal but there are some precautions. The maximum amount varies depending on which source you consult, but the highest amount of vitamin C that can be safely prescribed for thals using desferal is 200-250 mg daily, in split doses. You should slit your dose into two doses daily. However, there is another very important precaution, and this will be relevant depending on the current condition of your heart.

http://www.drugs.com/pro/desferal.html

Quote
In patients with severe chronic iron overload, impairment of cardiac function has been reported following concomitant treatment with Desferal and high doses of vitamin C (more than 500 mg daily in adults). The cardiac dysfunction was reversible when vitamin C was discontinued. The following precautions should be taken when vitamin C and Desferal are to be used concomitantly:

    * Vitamin C supplements should not be given to patients with cardiac failure.
    * Start supplemental vitamin C only after an initial month of regular treatment with Desferal.
    * Give vitamin C only if the patient is receiving Desferal regularly, ideally soon after setting up the infusion pump.
    * Do not exceed a daily vitamin C dose of 200 mg in adults, given in divided doses.
    * Clinical monitoring of cardiac function is advisable during such combined therapy.

Has an echocardiogram test showed any impairment in your heart function? If it has, you should minimize any vitamin C to what you get from your diet, until your heart shows improvement. If your heart has shown normal function, it will be safe to split your vitamin C dose into two and take it twice daily. Do NOT take more than 250 mg daily.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 17, 2010, 09:39:21 PM
Hi  everybody,
            Sorry  for  late  reply,my  computer  was  not  working.I  got  desferal  whole  week  over  24  hours.Am  lil  worried  coz  i  toke   250 mg  Vit  C  tablet  along  with  desferal,without  asking  my  doctor.I  did  not  split  the dosage.
From   monday  am  going  to  start  Asunra   again.
Komal 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 17, 2010, 09:41:41 PM
Komal,

Don't worry about the vitamin C. If you didn't notice anything unusual, like irregular heartbeat or excessive tiredness, there is no concern. I hope your next ferritin check shows some improvement.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 18, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
Hi,
     Andy  I  did  not  feel  anything  unusual, so  next  time  should  i  take  Vit  C??This  week  I  will  take  Asunra  Next  week  again  I  will  go  for  IV desferal.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 18, 2010, 04:23:09 PM

Good for you, Komal. You will surely see a drop in your ferritin level after what you are doing.
I am glad that you decided to take action.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 18, 2010, 04:33:18 PM
Komal,

I think you should divide the dose into two doses next time you take desferal.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 19, 2010, 07:11:16 AM
Andy,


this is something that has puzzled me. You see, for years on I have been taking the vit.C of 250 in one and only dose, a little before starting the pump. Since I have read in this site that the dosage should be split in half, I try to get half in the morning and half in the evening. That means that less is taken when having desferal and this consequently means what? that less iron gets in the bloodstream to be thrown out by desferal? I don't know....
Another thing is that doctors say that vit.C should be taken together with desferal.

Lena.

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 19, 2010, 04:21:12 PM
Lena,

You're right. This needs some clarification. First, in general, if you are taking desferal for longer than 12 hours at a time, which I assume is the case when taking it IV, I suggest splitting the dose into two because vitamin C washes out of the body fairly quickly, so to maximize the effect of the vitamin C, take it in two equal dose (not to exceed 250 mg daily) while taking the desferal. In this specific case I am concerned about the possibility of high heart iron, so splitting the dose will minimize the potential for releasing too much iron into the heart at once.

For someone using desferal for a routine period of around 12 hours, the C should be taken in one dose at the beginning of the desferal administration.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 19, 2010, 05:23:00 PM

Everything is clear now.
Thank you, Andy.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 20, 2010, 02:58:44 PM
Thanks  Andy  and  Lena
                Next  time  I  will  split  the  Vit  c  dosage.In coming  days  I  will  go   for  desferal.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Manal on January 23, 2010, 02:47:05 AM
Best of luck Komal

manal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 23, 2010, 07:44:17 AM
Thanks  Manal
last  night  I  went  hospital  to  maintain  IV  again  i started  chelation.This  time  I  did  not  use  vit  C.
KOMAL 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on January 23, 2010, 09:11:48 AM

Well done, Komal. It may seem difficult to do IV again and again, but it will show good results. Keep that in mind when you get bored and tired!
As for vit c, that's o.k not to take it as your fe level is high.

Take care,
Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 23, 2010, 09:35:47 PM
Hi,
  Andy  most  of  time  I  have  blue  colour   spots  on  my  body  they  appears  and  then  vanish  after  2  or 3  days.Today   I  saw  it  on  my  arm  its  somehow  big  painful  too.But  I  never   have  nasal  or  gum  bleeding.what  I  do  for  this??
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 23, 2010, 11:25:56 PM
Komal,

Are the blue spots bruises?
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 24, 2010, 07:49:32 AM
Yes   they  look  like  bruises.Is  it   due  low  platelet  count?
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on January 24, 2010, 04:21:48 PM
Komal,

Do you have any history of low platelet counts?

I know this issue has been going back and forth here and I have been reluctant to say don't take vitamin C, and instead suggested splitting it into two doses and I'm going to say that again. Continue with your vitamin C daily. Take 100-125 mg two times daily. It is not a high dose and no study ever showed these low doses to pose any danger to thals. The easiest way to keep from bruising is to make sure you are regularly getting vitamin C. The vast majority of thals are deficient in vitamin C but doctors have been hesitant to recommend it because studies of higher doses of C have led to reduced heart function in thals with significant iron load, but the reaction has been to overreact, depriving thals of the single most important food based nutrient. No doctor can explain to you how you can be healthy without vitamin C, because it is absolutely essential to good health.

No thal should be concerned about taking low doses of vitamin C daily. There is not a single bit of evidence that this is harmful in low doses. Komal, please start taking vitamin C daily and let us know if you get less bruising.

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on January 25, 2010, 03:15:29 PM
Hi Andy,
        yes  mostly  my  platelet  count  remain  low,I  start   taking  Vit C  as  per  your  advise.Hoping   this  problem  will  resolve  soon.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on February 01, 2010, 06:20:49 PM
Hi  Andy
   Since  2  days  I  am on  desferal  I  want  to  know  should  i  completely   rely  on  desferal  or  combi  with  Asunra???In  case  of   combination  how  many  days  use   desferal  in  a  month?
Other  problem  is  that  my  weight  does  not  increase  it  is  just  32kg  since  4  years. :(  how  to  gain  weight  till  35kg?
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on February 01, 2010, 06:33:08 PM
Komal,

What were you doing for chelation before the 2 days you have been using desferal? You need to be taking desferal 7 days per week right now. If you want to take Asunra also, please talk to your doctor about the combination so that you can be properly monitored. I cannot advise on the combination unless your doctor is aware of what you are taking.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on February 01, 2010, 07:08:47 PM
Komal,

Take desferal 7 days a week. You must be on aggressive desferal scheme right now - whether along with Asunra or not, it does not matter. Normally you should be on desferal-ferriprox combination therapy and on high doses. But as long as you are unable to take ferriprox ( I can't remember why but it does not matter), cling to desferal 7 days a week. The dose will be arranged by your doctor but in no case should it be too  low.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on February 02, 2010, 01:19:26 PM
Andy,
    Two  days  before  I  was  taking  Asunra.Am  using  6 vials  of  desfersl  at  a time.I  asked  my  doctor  he decided    the  combination  of Desferal+Asunra  combination.Please  explain  what  I have   to  monitor???Do  you  think  it  is safe  combination?
 
Lena,
  I  take  desferal  very  slowly  each  session  goes  over  24hrs.during  chelation   I  faced  abdominal  pain  and  headache.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on February 02, 2010, 05:33:43 PM
Komal,

What program has your doctor given you for taking Asunra and desferal together? How many days per week of desferal and how much Asunra daily?
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on February 03, 2010, 06:04:46 PM
Andy,
   My  doctor  did  not  give  any  program  about  Asunra  and  desferal  he  just  said  use  single  chelator  at  a  time.Do  not  take  together am  taking  1200mg  Asunra.So  please  guide  me    to  make   plan   for a   month.I  will  discuss  it  with  doctor.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on February 04, 2010, 02:23:11 AM
Komal,

If your doctor doesn't agree, you should go along with what the doctor says, because the doctor needs to monitor you regularly for creatinine levels and must also run regular liver function tests. You are on a high dose of Asunra, so perhaps you should just take 1200 mg daily and see how well it works for you. In one month you can check to see if your ferritin is dropping. If it does, then continue with Asunra. If it doesn't drop, I would highly recommend switching to desferal 7 days per week until your iron levels get down into a safer range.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on February 18, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
HI  Andy
     Week  before  I gave  blood  sample  for  these  tests.Am  sending  you  the  results  kindly  check  them.I  receive  them  today.KOMAL



TESTS                                RESULTS                                     NORMAL  RANGES

                                                     
1-Glucose  (Random)         86 mg%                                            Up  to  180   
 

2-Alkaline Phosphatase       334U/L                                          98--279         


3-Calcium                        8.3mg%                                          9--11

4-Phosphorus                  4.9mg%                                         2.5--4.5


 
                                  SPECIAL  CHEMISTRY



TESTS                              RESULT                UNIT         REFERENCE   RANGE

5-Magnesium (serum)           1.69                   mg/dl            1.3-2.5             
                                             
6-Vit  D3                           23.86                  ng/ml          <20 deficient
                                                                                    21-29 Insufficient
                                                                                    >30 Normal 
                                                                                   >150 Intoxication
       
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on February 18, 2010, 04:42:20 PM
still 900. Next result I will get tomorrow. I also get tomorrow an extra bag because of my vacation. So I dont think I will check it before May again. I'll let you know.

Good luck with all your stuff Komal!  :hugfriend ( I dont know of it is bad, i dont think so, but I am an egghead on  this piece of lab world).
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on February 19, 2010, 02:52:46 AM
Komal,

The only comment I have about these tests is that your vitamin D level is low and it is important to correct it. You need to either get some regular daily sunshine or you can take vitamin D supplements. I would suggest 2000-5000 IU daily until your D level gets above 30. Vitamin D is necessary so that many other nutrients can be properly used by the body and interestingly, thal majors with high vitamin D levels have lower levels of iron in their hearts.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on February 20, 2010, 11:56:40 AM
Whooohooo! It's only 509!!
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on February 20, 2010, 03:23:36 PM
Dori,

I suppose this is your fe count! Good for you! Exjade works, doesn't it?

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on February 20, 2010, 06:49:16 PM
ANDY,
    Am  feeling  pain  in  my  shoulder  and  elbow  joint  since  3  days,I  feel  the  medicines  and    the  dosage  am  taking  is  sufficient.
Vit D  one  tablet  of  0.025mcg  and  one  tablet    of  Osnate  (Ossein Mineral Complex) of  800mg.It  has  calcium+mineral.
Please   guide  me  should I  replace  them  with  any  other   brand   like  Osteocare   and  Centrum Silver????Also  mention  the  correct    dosage  my  weight  is  32kg.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on February 20, 2010, 07:45:31 PM
Si, my fe. Despite those side effects Exjade still does its real job too. :)
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on February 20, 2010, 08:38:26 PM
Hi Komal,

I don't understand the vitamin D dosage. It is almost nothing.

http://dietarysupplementdatabase.usda.nih.gov/faq.html

Quote
Vitamin D: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of 0.025 µg cholecalciferol/ergocalciferol

You need to be taking much more than 1 IU of D daily. My own experience and observation of others and also after talking to a top thalassemia doctor, is that you need at least 2000 IU of vitamin D daily to correct deficiency. I take 5000 daily and it makes a big difference. For you weight, I would suggest 2000 IU daily minimum. If further testing shows you are still deficient, take a higher dose. I also think Osteocare is a superior supplement to Osnate. Osteocare has a better balance of minerals. I find Osnate particularly lacking in magnesium. Centrum Silver is also a good multi-vitamin, so if you do have access to these, switching would be a good choice.

Joint pain is a side effect of Exjade (Asunra) in some people. As long as you can tolerate the pain, you should not stop Asunra. If the pain gets to be too much, stop Asunra for a few days and see if it feels better.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on February 23, 2010, 04:10:44 PM
Hi  Andy
       Today  I  went  to  hematologist   to  show  my   reports,about  Vit  D  he  did  not  increase  the  dosage.Right  now  am  taking  0.25mcg  tab   of  One Alpha  Leo  daily.
Again  I  have  bruises on  thigh   so  he  stops  Asunra   for  5  days  and  prescribed  2  other  test  P.T  and  APPT.Today   Platelet  count  is  28  and  Hb  is  11.1.Am  using  citrus  in  my  diet  for  bruises.
Need  your  comments.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on February 23, 2010, 05:58:27 PM
Komal,

One Alpha  Leo is a special form of vitamin D called Alfacalcidol. This is used to treat hypercalcemia and is a special form of D used when parathyroid hormone production is low. I would trust the doctor to treat this condition. The tests scheduled are to test parathyroid hormone levels and also a clotting test (APTT). Your platelet count is low and this is the likely cause of your bruising. Please follow your doctor's recommendations, as he is trained to address these issues.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on February 28, 2010, 11:49:49 AM
When I am on Exjade and my fe makes a real jump down...my platelets makes a big jump down too.
Is that also your case Komal?
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on March 02, 2010, 10:56:01 AM
Hi  Andy,
     Today i  got  the  results  of  PT  and  APTT
     TEST                            RESULT                   CONTROL
Prothrombin  time(PT)        10Sce                          10Sec
INR                                    1.0
 
APTT
Test                                  40Sec                          30Sec
 


TEST                         RESULT             UNIT         REF  RANGE
     

LFT
Bilirubin  Totall           2.3                     mg/dl        0-1.0mg/dl

Bilirubin direct           1.0                     mg/dl         0-0.25

Alkaline Phosphatase  348                     U/L            64-306

SGPT                     30                       U/L             0-36

After  seeing  the  reports  doctor  prescribed  further   tests.
1)  BLEADING  TIME
2)  ECHYMOSES  Platelet  count

He  said   take  Vit  C  tablet  of  500mg  but  i  think  dosage  is  very  high.am  very  confuse  because  of  these  blue  spots.
KOMAL
             
               

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on March 02, 2010, 11:57:36 PM
Hi Komal,

I really don't think you should take more than 250 mg vitamin C daily. The blue spots may be due to your ongoing low platelet problem and this is why your doctor is ordering these tests. This is related to liver function and your high iron along with hepatitis may be responsible for the low platelet level. Please continue to chelate daily, as this will also help control hepatitis.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on March 03, 2010, 05:39:18 PM
Andy
        I  do  not  have  hepatits,  Hep  B  and  Hep  C  are  negative.yes  ferritin  level  is  high  am  not  taking  Asunra  since  10  days.
Am  really worried  is  the  problem  of  blue  spots  related  to  ITP??kindly  give  detail  answer  is  there  any  possibility  in  Thalassaemia.
komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on March 04, 2010, 04:00:39 AM
Komal,

Below is a photo of what ITP looks like on the skin. Your doctor is running these tests to determine how serious the slow clotting problem is. Prednisone is often used as the first treatment. If it's a severe problem that doesn't respond to prednisone, splenectomy might be the recommended solution. How long have you had this problem and do you know if you were sick before it started? ITP has been associated with Human Parvovirus B-19 (Fifth disease) and also to insect borne diseases. If there is any possibility of this, it might be wise to be tested for Human Parvovirus B-19 before deciding on the treatment.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/Itp/ITP_WhatIs.html

(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/comicsetc/Reference%20pics/itp_photo.jpg)
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: laiba mukhtar on March 04, 2010, 07:51:38 AM
hi
komal
i m from lahore and in our thal centre (ganga ram) many patients are on combination therapy of asunra+desferal then why your doctor is reluctant to advise u this.
if you have problem with this combination then you should try ferriprox+desferal and it is very effective and i am using this and i have brought me fe level from 11000 mg to about 800 mg. in the begginning you should take desferal 24 hours means every day by pump or iv...
it will take time but u shoul make right decision at that time and ask properly by your doctor and ofcourse he will guide u more better..
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on March 04, 2010, 04:04:56 PM
Andy
     Today  i  went  for  Bleeding  time  test  and  total  time  to  stop  bleeding  is  10min 10 Sec.
My  hemo  is  not  interested   for  further  test  he  said  you  have  history  of  low  platelet  count.
I  just  have  5to6   tiny   reddish   spots   on  legs    as  shown  in  picture  which  you  send  me  big  blue  spot  near  knee  has  remove  now.one  more  thing  I  do  not  have  these  bruises  continuously  they  just  appear  in  6  or  7  months.I  was  not  sick  before  this.
komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on March 04, 2010, 09:38:41 PM
Komal,

The good news is that your clotting tests show that this is not a serious problem. My suggestion is just continue with your normal treatment routine and always chelate as much as possible. High iron leads to so many different problems, and the only way to combat this is to lower your iron load.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on March 05, 2010, 04:09:20 PM
Andy,
 
You  are  great  you  release  my  tension  how  much  I  was  worried   about  this.Definitely  i  will  continue  chelation  as  much  as  possible and  other  medicines.
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on April 03, 2010, 06:27:03 PM
Hi  Andy,
         I   am  on  Iv  desferal  these  days,its  second  time  I  have  abdominal   pain  its  mostly  occur  after  5 or  6  hours  of  chelation   mainly  after  having  meal.Before   this   I  have   same problem  but  not  after  every meal  as  happening  now.Am  using   6  vials  of  desferal.
Komal     
 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 03, 2010, 07:34:48 PM
Dear Friends

I m patient of major thalasssemia  if u don’t mind I m asking some about some problems
   
Friends  my iron level is 5530 ng/ml  and I was using exjade tablets 20000mg per day from 16

months  my weight is 56kg and my HCV is positive my ALT(SGPT) is 400 U/l

My doctor was advise me about Desferal and Ferriprox combination he says leave exjad and start this combination .
I was start my therapy butt my subcutaneous sites  was swelling with deferral.

Before 2 year my subcutaneous therapy good is butt now i have very pain and very bad swelling the site is become red rashes .
Because my skin is very  thick and fat I m using thalaset 10mm butt that is not working

Cane give me some advise about my subcutaneous problem.

Because I m very worry for my iron   

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on April 03, 2010, 10:31:44 PM
When I had it that why I couldnt bend anymore.
Later when I had it by IV I had also problems. The guess was that the fluid contain way too much desferal. You might try to lessen the dosage of desferal.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on April 03, 2010, 10:35:33 PM
Diluting the desferal with more water also does help. If you take the same amount of desferal over a longer period with more water, it actually does more chelation.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 04, 2010, 05:57:45 AM
Hi Andy and  Dori

My dose is  2.5g Desferal in 25ml of  water

First I make 1g desferal in 10 water ml for 7 hours and then I make 1.5g in 15ml water for 9 hours


Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on April 04, 2010, 06:26:03 AM
Rehman,

 Try 30 ml water  at least, for up to 6 vials of desferal. Also try 10 hours or even 11.
I hope this works.

Lena.
Title: desferal problem
Post by: komal on April 04, 2010, 08:26:16 AM

Hi  Andy,
         I   am  on  Iv  desferal  these  days,its  second  time  I  have  abdominal   pain  its  mostly  occur  after  5 or  6  hours  of  chelation   mainly  after  having  meal.Before   this   I  have   same problem  but  not  after  every meal  as  happening  now.Am  using   6  vials  of  desferal.
Komal     
 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on April 04, 2010, 08:37:42 AM
Hi Komal,

How much water are you using for 6 vials of desferal and how many hours are you taking it? You may need to dilute the desferal with more water to reduce the pain.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on April 04, 2010, 09:12:34 AM
Andy
    I  put  6  vials  in 350 ml  Plasaline (0.9 % sodium chloride)  and  I   take  for  22  to  24  hours.
komal 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Waleed on April 05, 2010, 02:35:45 AM
Dear Friends

I m patient of major thalasssemia  if u don’t mind I m asking some about some problems
   
Friends  my iron level is 5530 ng/ml  and I was using exjade tablets 20000mg per day from 16

months  my weight is 56kg and my HCV is positive my ALT(SGPT) is 400 U/l

My doctor was advise me about Desferal and Ferriprox combination he says leave exjad and start this combination .
I was start my therapy butt my subcutaneous sites  was swelling with deferral.

Before 2 year my subcutaneous therapy good is butt now i have very pain and very bad swelling the site is become red rashes .
Because my skin is very  thick and fat I m using thalaset 10mm butt that is not working

Cane give me some advise about my subcutaneous problem.

Because I m very worry for my iron   





Rehman lower ur desferal concentration and increase ur pump timings too. 1g for 10hours.. swelling and reddish skin is always what i experience..infact that kind of itching in reddish is wut i like  :dunno  i use to play with it..gives me bit of joy..and always swell my area whether abdomen or arm...so get used to it buddy..it shudnt b a problem
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 05, 2010, 04:31:53 PM
waheed Brother

i was try 1g  butt my skin is very thick.
 radish and pain is again im very upset for my iron
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 05, 2010, 04:35:10 PM
thank you Lena  for Reply

i was try u r way butt that time is again reddish and pain

because my skin is very thick.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on April 05, 2010, 07:34:34 PM
Komal,

Do you mean 35 ml of water? 350 is very much too high.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 06, 2010, 06:54:52 AM
Dear Friends

i need 27G 12mm needle for my subcotenious because my skin very thick  .

i was try thalaset 10mm butt that is not working .

cane you tell me about 12mm needle .where cane i buy and who is seller
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Waleed on April 06, 2010, 11:20:58 AM
Dear Friends

i need 27G 12mm needle for my subcotenious because my skin very thick  .

i was try thalaset 10mm butt that is not working .

cane you tell me about 12mm needle .where cane i buy and who is seller




sorry for ignorance rehman .but what does that thick means?
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 10, 2010, 07:34:32 AM
Dear buddies

 finally after diluting desferal in more water my problems are getting better

thanks Friends
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Waleed on April 11, 2010, 10:40:41 AM
Dear buddies

 finally after diluting desferal in more water my problems are getting better

thanks Friends


hasta la vista baby !!!  :thumbsup
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on April 11, 2010, 06:55:33 PM
thanks taimore
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on April 13, 2010, 12:39:03 AM
Taimore ??? :S .. hey Rehman who is he ?? lolzzz  :rotfl
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on April 29, 2010, 06:03:38 PM
Hi  Andy,
        Hope    you  will  b  fine.My  blood  test  shows  MP   positive  still  i  don't  have  fever  except  slight  throat  pain,should  i  go  for  medicine?test  done  on  28th  April.
Is  there any  harm  to  use  desferal?
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on May 08, 2010, 04:04:01 PM
i dont know wat MP is .. but i think this link wud b helpful for u, to decide that to use desferal or not ..
http://www.drugs.com/cons/desferal.html

Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 08, 2010, 05:25:51 PM
MP is Mycoplasmal pneumonia. The incubation period lasts as long as three weeks. Caution needs to be exercised in patients with lowered immune systems. Komal, if your condition worsens, do not hesitate to contact your doctor. In most cases, the illness resolves on its own, but because thalassemia is involved, please be cautious and report any changes, especially any symptoms in your lungs, to your doctor immediately. I do not find and contraindication for desferal with PM. In fact, iron chelation has been studied in PM to see if it slows the rate of infection.

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 08, 2010, 06:33:07 PM
Some viruses are iron friendly and worsen if you chelate with desferal. I do not know whether this is one of them...

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 08, 2010, 08:06:49 PM
Lena brings up a good point about infections. The Yersinia bacteria is always noted as one that thrives due to the siderophore that is provided by desferal.


The Prescribing Information from Novartis for desferal provides the following information.

http://www.pharma.us.novartis.com/product/pi/pdf/desferal.pdf

Quote
PRECAUTIONS
Iron overload increases susceptibility of patients to Yersinia enterocolitica and Yersinia
pseudotuberculosis infections. In some rare cases, treatment with Desferal has enhanced this
susceptibility, resulting in generalized infections by providing this bacteria with a siderophore
otherwise missing. In such cases, Desferal treatment should be discontinued until the infection is
resolved.
In patients receiving Desferal, rare cases of mucormycosis (Mucormycosis is the term used to describe fungal infections caused by fungi in the order Mucorales), some with a fatal outcome, have been
reported.

The Yersinia family of bacteria has been particularly singled out. Desferal should always be stopped during this bacterial infection.

I am continuing to search to see if there is any concern about desferal use during Mycoplasmal pneumonia infection. I will report back with anything I can find.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 09, 2010, 08:04:00 PM
Thank you Lena for bringing up the question. It resulted in a long search, but finally I found what I was looking for.

http://journals.pasteur.ac.ir/Research_Microbiology01/Issue3-4/291.pdf

Quote
No iron uptake systems of the ABC transporter
type were identified in the genomes of Mycoplasma
genitalium and Mycoplasma pneumoniae.

ABC transporter type includes those bacteria that use siderophores as a method of obtaining iron. Desferal provides the siderophore in Yersinia infections. Mycoplasma pneumoniae does not use this method to obtain iron and cannot benefit from the siderophore that desferal provides. In theory, reducing iron should reduce the iron available to infections, but this does not work with all bacteria, as they have mechanisms for maintaining iron stores. In any case, desferal will not be a problem in the case of Mycoplasma pneumoniae infection.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: patel.1005 on May 11, 2010, 04:12:11 PM
Hey Komal,

I know you said (back in january sometime) that you didn't want desferal because it does take a long time, but have you considered push desferal? I used to be on the subcutaneous pump desferal which would take me about 8 hours to inject. After that I switched to the Exjade when that came out, however, I had a lot of bad side effects that I couldn't deal with as I am in college and didnt have the time to deal with them. So I switched back to the desferal but now I dont do the 8 hour pump once a day. Now I take the same dose, but twice a day and I push it in manually and it only takes about 5-10 minutes depending on how fast you push. So all together it takes me maybe 30 minutes everyday for the desferal. And It really works. Out of all the treatment options I have done for my iron, this method has gained me the best and fastest results. When I started this method of treatment my iron levels were in the 8000-10000 range. Within 4 months of started this treatment I was down to the 3000-5000 range. For me that is a very good drop. None of the treatments I did before worked as well, not even the desferal over 8hrs.

Archana
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on May 12, 2010, 03:34:06 PM
Hi  Patel,
       I  never  listen about  push  desferal,30  minutes  really  amazing.But  u  know  doctors  said  take  desferal  for  long  time in order  to  get   good  results.
Now  am  taking  desferal  for  24hrs  its  tough  but  have  to  do.
Andy  whats  your  opinion  about  push  desferal?
komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 12, 2010, 04:17:10 PM
Komal,

when desferal got into circulation, some 30 years ago, its first use was that of pushing it with a syringe. I remember taking it that way in my behind. But that was because pump was not yet discovered.After pump got into use, it was the only way - the best way - to administer desferal.

I would say keep on with your chelation schedule according to your doctor.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 13, 2010, 12:25:21 AM
I have heard about people using a bolus pump for desferal, but this is specifically warned against in the prescribing information from Novartis.

http://www.novartis.com.au/PI_PDF/dsf.pdf

Quote
Precautions with administration of Desferal:
Desferal should not be given in doses higher than recommended. The drug should not be
given at concentrations higher than 10% as this increases the risk of local reactions.
Intravenous administration of Desferal should be undertaken only by means of slow
infusions. Rapid intravenous injection may lead to severe hypotension and shock (e.g.
flushing, tachycardia, urticaria and collapse). Rates of infusion should not exceed 15
mg/kg/hr.

When given by intramuscular injection, it may be necessary to administer the dose at more
than one site in order to allow sufficient dilution and distribution of the injection volume, and
to minimise pain on injection (see “DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION”).
For subcutaneous infusion, the needle should not be inserted too close to the dermis. Desferal
is not formulated to support subcutaneous bolus injection.

Lena is the voice of long experience with chelators. You would be well advised to follow her advice about chelation.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 13, 2010, 05:02:49 AM
Thank you, Andy. :hugfriend


I got my MRI results today. It seems o.k.
T2* heart : 31,6
T2* liver   : 34 and  0,9 mgr Fe/gr.

I have given it a thought about how to proceed. Many of you, I am sure, would suggest to give it a break but I do not think this is the right thing to do. So, I'll go on like this:
12 Ferriprox per day and twice a week desferal of 5 vials per time. I think this will maintain a negative iron balance, don't you say?

Lena
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on May 14, 2010, 10:36:43 AM
I cannot read those results, but since you say they are OK:  :thumbs
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 14, 2010, 05:43:29 PM
Lena,

Since you are so closely monitored, any fine tuning of your chelation plan can be done as needed. Your scores are excellent, but taking a break would probably only lead to catching up later on. And I agree, why allow any iron build up at all? Keep us posted on your continued progress.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 14, 2010, 06:11:56 PM

My thoughts exactly, Andy. Why allow any iron to build up and have to catch up later on?
The key word is "maintenance". It's like putting up weight after a strict diet. The secret  is not only to lose weight but to keep it down as well. Same thing.
I have often read in this site that people (patients and doctors as well) consider they should break chelation for a while after having lowered the ferritin level. That's wrong - in my opinion, it leads to iron build up, as one cannot give transfusions a break, too. Cannot stop them.
Anyway, I'll keep on with my plan. It has been working successfully for so many years.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: zs on May 14, 2010, 07:55:50 PM
hi
my ferretin level now is about 190  so my doc say slow your desferal and use it 2 time in week with 4 vial and 10 ml watter
I use 8 pill of L1 too but I use desferal 3 or 4  per week with 5 vial and 12 ml watter
whats your opinion? I do as my way or sth that Dr say?
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 14, 2010, 08:03:49 PM
Right now your ferritin is quite low so desferal twice a week, along with the L1 should be enough. If your ferritin does rise, you can add one more day of desferal per week.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 15, 2010, 03:11:38 AM
zs,

I fully agree with Andy, the only thing I would correct in your chelation plan is the "12ml" water you use to dilude your desferal. I think it is too low. Why don't you increase it to 20ml of water?
 I also take 5 vials of desferal per time but dilude it in 30ml of water.It makes it  easier to absorb.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: zs on May 23, 2010, 07:09:26 PM
hi
I use 5 vial with 12 ml watter coz my syringe pump MS18 (graseby) dosnt accept more than 12 ml with syring 10 and if use syringe 20 the rate of infusion will be more than rate that must be so I preaper 5 vial with 15 ml watter
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on May 24, 2010, 10:16:10 AM
hi lene

how many time should take u r infusion pump for 30 ml .
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on May 24, 2010, 11:57:35 AM
zs,
i agre to Lena and Andy .. u r using much less water to dilute 5 vials of desferal ..  i have been on 5 desferals a day .. i used to take 25ml water to dilute 5 vials of desferal ...  i have the almost same kind of pump ,, mine is MEids's Infusa-T , that is also support to only upto 10ml syringe ...  but , the method i used to use 25ml water for 5 vials was to make 2 desferals in 10ml  when that finish's then replace the empty sringe with 10ml filled syringe of desferal and when that get to finish then replace that empty syringe with a 5ml filled syringe .. make sure to not get the air in ..  i posted the procedure how i used to replce syringes , in another thread somewhere , i willl try to find that and share that to you ASAP .....

Best Regards
Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: zs on May 24, 2010, 02:52:21 PM
hi umair
it take alot of time to finish 25 ml so maybe I reduse 5 vial to 4 to solve that its better way than use pump for longg time :biggrin
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 24, 2010, 05:53:41 PM
zs,

I do not think 4 vials is a good idea -- it is too low a dosage, you will be pricked for nothing.
Can't you put the desired time to your pump? 8 or 10 or 12 hours? The rule for the pump  is every vial to be diluded to 2,5 ml water, so 5 vials goes to 12.5 ml water. Technically it is o.k to use 12 ml water but I think it is too low. Anyway, I think it is preferable  than lowering the vials to 4.


Rehman,

I have arranged the 30ml to last for 10 hours.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: nice friend on May 25, 2010, 10:58:39 AM
zs,
i agree to wat Lena has said that it wouldn't be a good idea to reduce desferal dose .... bcoze desferal dose is subject to your body weight and your body is subject to blood need and blood need = iron  you're getting ....  desferal and blood need is subject to your body weight .. so, if you're planing to cut down desferal dose then u must cut down the blood transfusion ( or blood volume you transfuese with ) which isn't possible ( to cut the blood transfusion ) so dont cut desferal as well ..

( Andy and Lena , please correct me if i m wrong at any pint of this post ... :) )

Regards
Umair
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on May 26, 2010, 05:51:06 PM
Dear Lena

thanks for reply cane you send me you are complete procedure of diluting  desferal and you are pump speed timings.
becouse im using 2.5G desferal with 20 ml of water in 20ml syringe butt that take a 17 hours butt i want that is finish in  in 12 0r 14 hour.
 cane you send me a good opinion .  i have infusa T pump
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 27, 2010, 05:10:19 AM

Rehman,

when you say 2.5G you mean 5 vials of desferal, right?
It is o.k to dilute 5 vials in 20ml water, but I do not know the brand of your infusion pump to give you instructions. You can make it to last 10-11 hours.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on May 27, 2010, 08:57:31 AM
Dear lena

i have Infusa T pump 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 28, 2010, 04:50:05 PM
Rehman,

I do not know this kind of pump, how it works. That's what I meant...whether you can adjust the time or not.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on May 28, 2010, 05:41:22 PM
This pump can be seen at http://www.medis.it/t.asp

I don't know enough to comment, so please advise.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on May 29, 2010, 05:02:29 AM
Thank you, Andy.

Rehman,

As I can see your pump has adjustments on it, so you can put the button accordingly.
A full syringe of 19-20 ml  measures 60mm, so if you want the pump to finish in 10 hours you must divide the 60mm/10hours and put the time adjustment button to 6. If you want it to finish in 12 hours, put the button to 5 and so on. I think 10-12 hours is o.k when you have a syringe of 20ml. It is enough. But if you prefer it otherwise, each time divide the 60mm with the desired time and put the button to that number.
I hope my instructins are clear.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Dori on May 31, 2010, 08:36:35 AM
Hey,
I have been pretty ill two weeks ago. I've had a blood transfusion last thursday. My ferritin was dropped to 400 and my hgb was dropped to 7.7 Only one bag was given. My next blood transfusion is next week thursday late morning. In the evening I got an exam and I moving blood transfusion forward is not an option and postpone it to the other week also not. So, for the first time in my life taniking up and an exam will be on one day. I will get also one bag that time. I wonder what my hgb will be by then. I know, 7.7gl/dl is a shocking mark. I was suprised myself too.

Dori
sorry for the messy message
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: komal on July 16, 2010, 03:29:27 PM
Hi  Zaini,
        how  are  u?I  want  to  ask  Thumbtack  style  needles  r  available  in  Aga  khan  hospital?I  have  asked  every  where  in   surgical  markets  but  these  r  not  available.is  it  possible   to  get  through  shipment   so  what  would  the  procedure?
Komal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Zaini on July 17, 2010, 06:25:05 AM
Hi Komal,

I am sorry i don't have any information about that,but i'll inquire on my next visit.

Zaini.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: ankita on August 28, 2010, 08:26:56 AM
hi my fe is 7000 now t have started taking 1000 mg/day (kelfer) should i go for combination therapy or continue same .any suggestions
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on August 28, 2010, 10:08:11 AM
Ankita,

combination of kelfer and desferal together will be needed in your case. Only kelfer will not do the job.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on August 28, 2010, 06:44:22 PM
I agree with Lena. You should add desferal to your chelation program until you get your ferritin down to a safe level.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: samyuktha on September 04, 2010, 04:09:22 PM
Was quite Busy with the kids and that too with samyu as she has started her schooling.She is having Asunra 300 mg/day.Her weight is 13.1kg.How much dosage of Asunra is she supposed to have for a good and effective chelation? I am from Chennai,India. Do we get FERRIPROX in India?

Kindly help me on this.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on September 04, 2010, 04:24:49 PM
Her dose of Asunra could be 400 mg daily. In India, Kelfer is the same drug as Ferriprox.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: zs on September 18, 2010, 09:11:36 AM
hi all
my  ferrtin is about 50 now I dont know continue desferal (as I say I use desfonak ) as before or not I use 5 vial for 3 day per week also use 8 deferiprone each day
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Manal on September 19, 2010, 01:04:57 AM
ZS

In your case, there are two options, either to
1- Stop chelation completly until ferritin rises again and then re-satart chelation and the benefit of this option is that you give the body a break from chelation drugs with all its side effects.

OR

2- Take only a maintaining dose and not a chelating dose to keep the same levels of ferritin.
The benefit of this option is that you don't expose your body to iron overload again and therefore keeping your organs safe and healthy.

The decision of which option to choose depends on the doctor point of view, whether the patient is a child or an adult (has to do with growth), tolerance of side effects if there are any...

But please bare in mind that doing LIC  and T2*is so important to determin the exact situation of iron overload in the body because ferritin could be deceivng as we disscussed before.
We have seen members with a ferritin in the 100s level and having iron overload in the heart, so in this case stopping chelation will not be an option.

Manal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on September 19, 2010, 10:24:10 AM
zs,

I totally agree with Manal. I personally would choose the second option -- to continue chelating in a lower dose. I have never stopped completely chelation even when my ferritin reached 45. I think this is a mistake. It would be nice though, to have a heart and liver MRI, if this is workable in your country.

Lena
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Emby on September 19, 2010, 12:35:36 PM
Thalpals please may I have your valuable advice?...
Regarding ferritin levels our older son, BB, is at 311 and the younger one, LB, 501.

BB is taking Ferriprox, 3 tabs 3x day for 4 days, weekly. His ferritin was much lower, 100, but has risen slowly. His T2* shows that his heart and liver are free of iron. Previously he had severe heart iron and mild liver iron. I feel that he should increase the Ferriprox by one day to stop iron building up.  Please tell me what you think about this.

LB's ferritin levels has been declining slowly and is at 511. He is taking Ferriprox 3 tabs 3x daily 7 days a week. His T2* showed him to have mild heart and liver iron but recently it shows his heart to be clear and liver with mild iron. I feel he is ok with this dose however I would still like your advice.

 :heartred....Emby.         
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: zs on September 19, 2010, 03:51:43 PM
thanx dear lena and manal for reply
yes I can go for MRI but I am so lazy for that I o MRI 2 year later it was nt so good t2* for my heart was about 8 and I must redo that for know how is every thing these days
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on September 19, 2010, 04:51:21 PM
You should really get another T2* to see what progress you have made on lowering your heart iron. Then you can make an informed decision about what your current chelation program should be.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on September 20, 2010, 12:09:34 AM
Emby,

Ferriprox is doing a good job for your sons and progress is good. Watch BB's ferritin. His Ferriprox dose will probably have to be raised by one day a week as you suggested. The 300 range is very good, but if it continues upward, he will need at least one more day each week.

I think parents and patients have to closely monitor ferritin levels and chelator dosage when dealing with low ferritin levels. Those involved daily can react much more quickly to changes than doctors can. Managing the chelation regimen the way Emby's sons are managed here can ensure that enough but not too much chelation is done. When ferritin is in the range of below 300, close monitoring is required, and parents and patients need to be aware of any signs that too much chelation is being used. At these levels, only maintenance doses of chelators should be used.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on September 20, 2010, 07:09:14 AM

With a ferritin of 102 (last count) I take 12 ferriprox seven days a week and 5 vials of desferal twice a week. With this dose I keep my ferritin around 100, though some of you would consider it too much.

Lena
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Andy Battaglia on September 20, 2010, 03:19:59 PM
Lena,

I think you are best qualified to answer this question because you have used all three chelators and have done so at low ferritin levels. Do you feel that all chelators are not the same at low ferritin levels? For example, are you more comfortable with Ferriprox than Exjade at this level? Desferal? My personal opinion, based on potential side effects, is that Ferrirpox would be the easiest to manage at very low ferritins. What do you think?
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on September 20, 2010, 04:01:25 PM
Good question Andy,

At first I'll say that I have not used exjade as monotherapy. I have taken it along with ferriprox and it worked, the combination definitely lowered my ferritin level at 68 from 113 - I am referring to the counts in order for you to get a clear picture of what I am saying. I have only used ferriprox alone as a monotherapy for a whole year and my MRI showed that it was not enough. Although it maintained my ferritin at a low level as well, the T2* liver worsened than the year before (though still clear). That made me reconsider ferriprox monotherapy and add exjade at first(lower dose) and then desferal after my decision to drop exjade as too risky(my opinion).

Andy, I agree with your opinion here for exjade potential side effects- a risk one does not take in low ferritin levels, at least I did not.

After much thought and consideration, I came to the conclusion that ferriprox is enough in low ferritin levels but with a slight touch of  desferal in order to keep the liver clear.And this seems to work. Of course, one can rearrange chelation program. You see, when in low ferritin levels you have the option to skip one or the other for some time. Let's say, you want to get some rest for a month or so-you drop desferal and then the next month you press harder. This is a choice you have when in these levels - although I would say that I have not applied this a lot - but then I am very disciplined in my chelation- another thal could do that.

I think that all chelators have the same effect on low fe levels, considering of course the effect each of them has on the organs. Exjade and Desferal mainly for liver - Ferriprox for heart. That's why combination therapy is needed even in low ferritins. Of course, this is not the case with the high ones. In high levels monotherapy is surely not enough.

In the end, I have never been comfortable with exjade since the beginning - that's why I dropped it in spite I hadn't had any serious side effects.

Lena

Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on September 21, 2010, 02:31:56 PM
Hello Dears

cane you tell me where cane i do  the MRI T2* becouse im living in pakistan and in pakistan this is not available .
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Emby on September 21, 2010, 04:28:58 PM
Thank you for the advice....much appreciated  :smiley!
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Manal on September 21, 2010, 09:41:09 PM
Rehman

Is it an option for you to travel outside Pakistan?

manal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Rehman on September 22, 2010, 01:58:24 PM
thanks for reply manal yes i can travel every where in world just tell me country's and places of MRI t2*.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Manal on September 22, 2010, 05:01:26 PM
Rehman

In this link there are some names of centers worldwide
http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=259.0

Also you can read in the section of'' treatment centers'' for more details
http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?board=9.0

Since you have the option of travellig, i advice you to choose countries that have comprehensive treatment centers ( for eample Italy in Europe) in order to have a full assesment concerning your health and treatment

manal
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: FarahS on October 07, 2010, 04:41:18 AM
Hi.. I am a mother of two thal patients. I read in one of your past posts that you have used a combination therapy of Exjade and Ferriprox.I want to know if this is a safe combination..my kids r on Exjade at the moment and  their ferritin level is quite high..pl reply. thanks 
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: usman on October 07, 2010, 04:49:21 AM
hi komal ,Anday says absolutely right .
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: Lena on October 07, 2010, 09:15:49 AM
Farahs,

I have used Ferriprox- Exjade combination,  but as I am not a doctor I cannot talk about the safety of this combination. There are doctors who support this scheme, there are others who do not as -up to now- there  have not been any clinical studies about it.

Lena.
Title: Re: high ferritin level
Post by: FarahS on October 07, 2010, 10:34:35 AM
thank you