Discussion Forums > Diet, Nutrition and Supplements
Can Supplements Help Everyone and Not Only Thals?
Bigg:
Hi Andy,
So I guess I found the post you were talking about on another thread...
Seemingly I have similar health problems as you have, and I did a lot of research in these areas. I hope that what I write will help you and will not worry you...
--- Quote ---I don't get enough exercise but I do exercise at least briefly daily. I'm overweight, although a very slow thyroid is a factor here.
--- End quote ---
There were articles claiming that when you are overweight, but otherwise your blood test are normal (ie. cholesterol level, triglycerydes and so on), and you are physically active, you are not at increased risk of any disease. In the article prepared specifically for my country (it was newsweek) as an example of such a person who is overweight (to tell the truth, he was really obese) but otherwise healthy was an actor known in my country. His blood was tested, he had doppler ultrasound examination of arteries, which were in very good shape. Wime verified these claims - after 3 years he was dead of heart attack - either these tests were not accurate or... who knows what...
Now scientists say that fat (especially in the belly for men) not only causes changes in metabolism (high cholesterol and triglycerydes) and blocked arteries, but also is a big excreting organ - it excretes many different hormones, one of them causing diabetes, other causing inflammation - don't remember exactly the names and mechanism - these are still being investigated.
So, what I am trying to say here, is that we can't forget to take care of excess weight. I am overweight too, and also due to "unavoidable conditions" (like your thyroid), and I am trying to lose weight, but it's not easy.
Fortunately I get enough exercise. Getting enough exercise when being overweight is the least you can do to increase your metabolism and keep your arteries clean (to keep long story short).
--- Quote ---As I said, I don't eat meat but I do eat tons of cheese. I try to eat as many whole unprocessed foods as possible. Whole grains are great. Even though I don't like a long list of vegetables, I do eat what I like and also try to eat fruits. I try not to eat a lot of junk food but do slip and eat some. Is this enough? I don't think so. So, what else?
--- End quote ---
I also prefer eaiting chesee than meat. But I am trying to cut on both. Every sandwich that I make is made of not only chese or meat, but also from lettuce, tomatoes, onions, garlic and so on. There is much more vegetables than cheese or food on the sandwich.
I am trying to have one meal completely vegetarian - for example rice-meals with marmalade or canned fruit.
The problem with meat and cheese is the same - they not only cause problems, because they are of animal origin (they contain animal protein directly causing disease, see for example beta-casein in milk, causing diabetes), but because they are contain hormones and antibiotics. Cows for example, when even not fed with hormones, have high levels of estrogen, bacause the farmers try to push performance to the limits. See for example:
http://www.tbkfitness.com/milk.html
--- Quote ---Do I feel supplements have played a key role in my health? Yes, yes and yes. My diet and exercise habits do not explain the state of my health by themselves.
--- End quote ---
Same here.
My list of preffered supplements contains:
- vit D
- IP-6
- cherries - this really improves condition of my muscles, great antioxidant, you might wanna try these if you have sore muscles
http://ezinearticles.com/?Cherry-Juice-Eases-Arthritis-Pain-and-Muscle-Soreness&id=2436319
- green tea - antioxidant
- resveratrol - not only because it may raise levels of fetal hemoglobin, but also because of that:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080703120402.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081126122203.htm
- L-carnitine - good for muscles, blood and promotes fat burning.
- blueberries, when these are available, my favourite fruit
So, this is my research in a very little nutshell. These all ways and supplements are easier to implement than one might think - I am kind of forgetful, so these have to be this way. They became my habit, and are not that hard to implement anymore. The point of this whole discussion is also showing that not only supplements are important, but also other factors, although without supplements it would be impossible to stay healthy these days.
Oh, and I'd forget - Andy, what was your initial level of vitamin D (and when the test was done), last level (and when the test was done), and dosage of vitamin D exactly?
I'd like to do a calculation similar to what I did for my own case (described in the other thread), to see if it checks out when you have the next blood test of vitamin D. Just a little research of my own, if you allow, Andy.
B.
Andy Battaglia:
Bigg,
This was my first vitamin D test. From my symptoms over the years, I can tell it was much lower before I began using vitamin D. My winter depression has been upgraded to a feeling like I'm holding my breath all winter, waiting for it to end. This is actually a major improvement. When I doubled my dose in October, the muscle pain in my legs vanished in days. I knew I was on the right track but not there yet because I am still tired for no reason and feel like crawling back in bed in the morning. In contrast, when I get a lot of sun regularly, I don't even want to sleep and get by on about 5 hours a night. Vitamin D testing has only become in vogue in the past year or so, so very few people are going to have earlier results.
I eat meals with no animal products regularly but also do eat a lot of cheese (my sandwiches always contain lettuce...homegrown right now and tomato), and organic yogurt (no hormones in this at least). I also eats fruits in season. Right now it's strawberries. Soon will be cherry and blueberry season. I love them both. I also grow hot peppers which are also high in antioxidants and eat them regularly. I do need to work on my belly and with summer finally here, I am getting more exercise (at least when my sons cooperate and I don't have to cover their hours in the store like yesterday...ugh). I have also recently started L-carnitine and resveratrol, and thinking about finding a magnesium supplement.
I will be getting tested for vitamin D again in about 6 months. I am hoping for some progress.
Bigg:
Hi Andy,
Because the data is limited, I have to make some assumptions in order to calculate your vitamin D parameters, so here it is:
How long was vitamin D taken: 8 months = ca. 240 days
(since half of October till half of June)
The dose: 2 000 iu/daily
Total dose: 384 000 iu
= 240 days * (2 000 iu/daily - 400 iu daily usage)
Increase in vitamin D level in blood: (A) 10- (B) 15 ng/ml
Comment: if your level is 19 ng/ml, it is very likely that it was initially (A) 9- (B) 4 ng/ml.
4 ng/ml is however less likely, because it is extremely low.
IUs needed to raise vitamin D level by 1 ng/ml:
(A): (384 000 iu / 10 ng/ml) = 38 400
(B): (384 000 iu / 15 ng/ml) = 25 600
This means that in order to raise your level to say 49 ng/ml, you need to take:
(A) (49 ng/ml - 19 ng/ml) * 38 400 = 1 152 000 iu
(B) (49 ng/ml - 19 ng/ml) * 25 600 = 768 000 iu
How many days you will have to supplement (at dose of 3000 iu):
(A) 1 152 000 iu / (3000 iu daily - 400 iu daily usage) = 443 days (ca 15 months)
(B) 768 000 iu / (3000 iu daily - 400 iu daily usage) = 295 days (ca 10 months)
This means you will have to deal with unpleasant effects of vitamin D deficiency for another year or longer... Even if we assume that these unpleasant effects start to subside at 30 ng/ml (and it seems very likely that they will although this may be not optimal level), this still means half a year of supplementation.
Maybe it's me, maybe I am impatient, but I wouldn't want to wait for so long. So...
How many days you will have to supplement (at dose of 10000 iu):
(A) 1 152 000 iu / (10 000 iu daily - 400 iu daily usage) = 120 days (ca 4 months)
(B) 768 000 iu / (10 000 iu daily - 400 iu daily usage) = 80 days (ca 2,5 months)
It is still kind of long, but to reach this 30 ng/ml level when symptoms subside it will take 1,5 months on average.
Why do doctors do not usually prescribe such a dose? Because they are afraid that the patient may get hypercalcemia (due to secondary hyperparathyroidism), but this fear is quite unwarranted:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDToxicity.shtml
(green crosses on this page are references to relevant scientific research)
To be on the safe side, calcium level should be tested a few times during therapy, and the doctors do not want remember about that, so this results in lower doses prescribed.
And as it showed recently, magnesium can supress parathyroid hormone, and this allows for using the higher dose.
However I know for a fact that some doctors in the U.S. prescribe this high, or even higher doses.
The calculations above look quite complicated, but they are not.
I calculated quite similar values for myself, however I do not remember the exact number, I only remember that at dose of 10 000 iu (on average) it took me 6 months to get to 42 ng/ml.
These calculations always look similarly, as the absorbtion rates of vitamin D are similar and weight is also not that different among different people - so these calculations above apply to almost anybody ie. they show how very long you have to supplement vitamin D...
One exception to this would be people who get a lot of sunshine, but these people will not get vitamin D deficient in the first place -> if someone thinks that he/she gets a lot of sunshine, and has vitamin D deficiency, this means he/she does not get so much sunshine afterall, it only seems so.
--- Quote ---and thinking about finding a magnesium supplement
--- End quote ---
I forgot to mention magnesium before. I am taking it and I am getting less grumpy as I write, but still... :rotfl
One more thing about itching - have you checked your vitamin B12 status?
I had vitamin B12 deficiency too - effect of not eating too much meat, I suppose.
OK, that's all for now.
B.
Andy Battaglia:
Bigg,
You did mention the one variable that I hope to take advantage of at least in theory (if it ever stops raining), sunshine. I do hope to get some help this summer from the sun.
Sharmin:
This makes me think magnesium absorption is a very significant factor for thals in particular. As warding off bone related illness and cardiology problems is essential in thalassemia - and the calcium:magnesium ratio plays a large role in both of these (as well as many other things) - that we need to get this right. Taking cal:mag - 2:1 ratio does not mean you are actually getting cal:mag 2:1 ratio because magnesium is not readily absorbed - therefore one needs to take higher doses of magnesium to achieve the recommended amount. We therefore need to determine magnesium intake based on absorption. And this is essential to the health of thals (even non thals) - am I right in concluding this?
Sharmin
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