Thalassemia Patients and Friends

Discussion Forums => Working Towards a Cure => Topic started by: healinglights on June 18, 2008, 10:58:35 PM

Title: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: healinglights on June 18, 2008, 10:58:35 PM
Hi, I am new to the website.  I had heard about caroa before joining this forum and always thought I would try it.  I ordered the 4 trial bottles today to start my participation in the trial of caroa. 

My situation  is witih thallisimia minor ( at least my initial diagnosis was minor, but I've heard different since then).  I usually have a count in the 8's the highest I remember is 9.  I have several sisters who carry the minor trait too, but I seem to be more affected than they are, except for one.  Unfortunately, one is in a dire medical situation right now and cannot have an operation because of low blood counts and anemia.

I have a theory that the effects of caroa are affected by blood type.  I also suggested to Lloyd that as part of the trial participants should note not only whether the patient is minor, intermediate or major, but also whether they are affected in the Beta or Allpha chain.  I think that might very well be the difference you may see in results. I am also rather curious to know alittle about the diet of people who take caroa, particularly too how they take it, whether with milk, juice straight etc.

It is strange that three of my sisters with minor were hardly affected until around menopause where everything worsened.  It reminds me that around puberty was the worse time for me, other than pregnancy.  So, I hypothosize that hormonal levels play a huge part in  at least females and how affected they are by thallassemia at certain points in their life.

Anyway, that's a mouthful for a first posting.  I will keep all informed of my results.
Title: Re: The Caroa Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on June 19, 2008, 12:42:34 AM
After reading your other post and this one, I wonder if your Hb level has been so low because you might also have iron deficient anemia, which can coincide with thal minor. Your Hb is quite low for minor and minor alone may not explain why. Have you ever had iron studies done to determine your iron level?

It is unlikely that carao can induce hemoglobin in alpha thalassemia. The hemoglobin inducing natural substances like wheatgrass, resveratrol, carao (possibly), etc. work by turning the gamma gene back on. This is the gene responsible for producing the fetal hemoglobin along with the alpha globin produced by the alpha gene. It turns off at birth and the beta hemoglobin gene takes over to combine with the alpha globin to form adult hemoglobin. With beta thalassemia, there is not enough of the beta globin to match the alpha globin resulting in lowered hemoglobin. By turning the gamma gene back on, fetal hemoglobin productions rises because there is now gamma globin to match with the abundant alpha globin. With alpha thalassemia, the deficiency is in alpha globins and turning the gamma globin does not help because there is already sufficient beta globin available. There is no other gene that can take the place of the alpha gene, unlike the beta gene which doesn't become active until late pregnancy. So no matter how much gamma globin can be produced by turning the gamma gene back on, there will always be insufficient alpha globin available in alpha thal.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: healinglights on June 27, 2008, 07:24:23 PM
Andy, thanks so much for your informative breakdown.

I have been pricked so much and studied so much, particularly during pregnancy, my iron levels and folic acid levels always appear fine.
My first preganancy before I was diagnosed I was given an iron injection every other day, and hospitalized ( they thought it was sickle cell).  All it did was turn my skin dark, had no impact whatever on my counts.  I have tried several different types of iron.

 I am fed up with testing, as I have the kind of veins that require several sticks and numerous tries, and usually several different peoplel poking.  last time a doc had to go to my inner thigh to take from an atery after at least 10 differnt people over three hours tried to draw blood.   occasionally, God bless them I have met with better results from either more caring or more adept persons.  But usually it has been  such a battle that I now dread having blood drawn etc.  I've stuck it out for years, but it just reached a point where the thought of going through it is enough to freak me out.  I've lived many decades, so that would let you know I have been patient ptting up with it before. ( One of my daughters has the same problem, thank God it does not happen with my other children).

I am hoping the caroa will help.  Wheat grass seems to give me a boost, but it wears off in a few hours.  I just ordered a wheat grass juicer and plan to take it more frequently as its $2.50 a half onze shot where I live and that's getting to be rather expensive.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on June 28, 2008, 06:13:05 PM
Healinglights,

If you are interested in another cheap source of wheatgrass, try the capsules found at http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=4993

Kamut is an original, non-hybrid form of wheat, and the capsules are quite effective and also quite inexpensive at this site. My wife used these along with the wheatgrass extract from wheatgrassactive while she was undergoing chemotherapy and her energy levels were very good for a chemo patient. The doctors were surprised at how well she did during chemo and we both feel that wheatgrass made a big difference. You can safely take both wheatgrass and carao and benefit from the cumulative effect.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on August 20, 2008, 10:13:26 PM
Al, could you please correct the spelling in the title of this thread (change "caroa" to "carao").  The incorrect spelling will make this topic invisible to a web search on, for example, "carao thalassemia"
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on August 20, 2008, 10:30:23 PM
Lloyd,

I made the spelling correction. Let me know if you see it misspelled anywhere else.
Title: Carao Trial Results Posting Guidelines
Post by: Lloyd Standish on September 11, 2008, 10:12:08 PM
I suggest (subject to approval by the forum administrators) that this forum thread be used for carao study results and comments directly related to those results ONLY.  This will allow all results to be readily available in a single place, rather than spread out over many forum pages.  (If the administrators think an entirely new forum thread should be begun, this post will be moved.)

Carao study participants should copy the list below into a new post to THIS forum, one by each participant.  Participants can ADD new information over time, since any forum member can edit his own posts.

1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao
2. Date when carao is begun
3. Dose given
4. Age and diagnosis of patient
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available)
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao. Of course, the date of the test(s) must be included.
7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given.
8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient.

Again, this forum is for carao trial results only and discussion directly related to those results.  For general discussion on carao for thalassemia, look here:
http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=1259.0 (http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=1259.0)

Here is the list of carao study participants, each of whom should make their results post (with all 8 points as listed above) to this forum thread:
[bgcolor=#FFFF00]UPDATED OCT 21, 2008  Carao study participants, please post your information to this forum as each of you agreed.  Below is a summary of information received as of Oct. 21[/bgcolor]

1. Manal (son) information provided
2. Manal (mother) mother's bottles not yet arrived?
3. Maha no information
4. Olivia Mary (Kathleen) no information
5. Karen James no information
6. Narendra no information
7. Mudit (non delivery to India, reshipment offered at my expense, no response received to my messages on Oct. 7)
8. Om no information
9. Al (still owes postage, carao shipped anyway but did not arrive to Malaysia, no response to my request for postage for reshipment on Oct. 14)
10. Zaini information provided
11. Sharmin (recently signed up, bottles not yet received)

For convenience of the participants, I am repeating below my use and dosage recommendations:

Quote
2 teaspoons/day (1 tsp = 5ml) is a good dose for ages about 2-4 (see suggested dosage below).

The table below is a estimated dosage guide which can be modified to suit individual cases.  The suggestion that children under 6 months get the benefit of carao through their mother's milk is simply to avoid giving a such a young baby ANY other food except mother's milk.  However, I believe that Dr. Attahiru Sokoto in Nigeria gives carao to newborns for sickle cell disease.

For children under 4 yrs, carao should always be given with milk or formula, since the strong taste is likely to be a turnoff for the very young.  Children 4 and up who like the taste of carao can try it plain.

ages 0-6 months: nursing mother should take carao at 4 tsp/day
ages 6 months-1 year: 1 tsp
ages 2-4: 2 tsp
ages 3-5: 2-3 tsp
ages 6+ 4 tsp
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on September 27, 2008, 03:55:41 PM
Hi Lloyd,

Yes you are right,my daughter started carao on 19th August,started with the dose of 2 spoons a day,she had a transfusion on 30th August,her pre transfusion hb was 9.6,after this transfusion i doubled her dose to 4 spoons a day,then after three weeks her pre transfusion hb was 10.2.

She is 7 and a half years old,and though she was diagnosed as thal major in her hb electrophoresis report at age of three,but after a year of her diagnosis another doctor told me that she must be thal intermedia beacause she didn't need any transfusions till the age of three,neither she had any health poblems till then.

As i told you earlier that since last few months her hb was hovering between 9 to 9.6,i'll have to get the copies of blood work from the hospital for accurate dates and readings,which i definitely will.

Her pre transfusion hb on 29th august was 9.6,and on 19th september,it was 10.2.

She is already taking IP6 and Wheat grass super shots.

The difference which i felt was in her last pre transfusion week she generally becomes a bit pale,this was not the case this time,as her hb was a bit increased.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on September 27, 2008, 09:13:41 PM
Hi Lloyd,

1- i received all the bottles except two are still remaining.

2- Started the carao in June 2008

3- First two bottles i gave 5ml twice a day then starting third bottle the dose is 10ml twice a day

4- my son 6 years and thal intermedia , never transfused

5- Average HB is 6.2 to 6.5

6- On September Hb is 6.5 but there was a significant decrease in the reyticulete count, it became 3.5%, we never had it that low. On October 1 will be the second CBC

7- No treatment given except mineralsm and multivitamin, L-carnitine and folicacid

8-  No significant change except the reyticulte count that is mentioned above

I will update you with the new CBC after the first of October

manal

PS: As for me i didn't start cause i only got two bottles for me not four. What do you think, shall i start anyway or wait until all the bottles arrive??????
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on September 27, 2008, 10:40:22 PM
I wish everyone the best in this trial. 

I hope Ahmad and Zainab's hg begins staying higher and higher very soon. 
Title: reshipment for Manal
Post by: Lloyd Standish on September 28, 2008, 12:12:20 AM
Manal,
I think we can decide that one 2-bottle package sent to you on 6/13 was lost in shipping. I will pay for reshipping of 2 bottles. I'm sorry you had this delay.  I suggest you go ahead and start using the 2 bottles that arrived, since the reshipment should arrive before they are finished.  2 bottles should last 5 weeks for an adult.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: aysam on September 28, 2008, 12:22:34 AM
WHAT IS THIS YOU ALL ARE TALKING ABOUT ANY AFFECT DOSE IT WORK WERE CAN I GET SOME
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on September 28, 2008, 01:00:52 AM
This is about carao fruit for thalassemia.  Carao fruit is a natural forest fruit that is proven effective for "ordinary" anemia as well as sickle cell disease, but there is little information on use for thalassemia.  There is a study involving 10 members of this forum for thalassemia.  For more information, see this forum thread: http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=1259.0
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 17, 2008, 06:30:16 PM
Hi Everyone,

My daughter is going for tran sfusion tomorrow,we tested her hb to day and the reading is 9.9 after four weeks  :biggrin since last few months her hb was hovering between 9.4 and 9.6 with 3 weeks intervals,last time her pre transfusion hb was 10.2 and her doctor allowed us to take a break of 4 weeks,and now 9.9 after 4 weeks,isn't it good? Does it mean carao is helping her? What do you guys think ?

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on October 17, 2008, 06:40:04 PM
Zaini,

That is good news. Carao may be having an effect so please continue to keep the records Lloyd requested and also comments about what you observe about her health in general. Hemoglobin levels can change a bit with the season, so we shouldn't jump to any conclusions yet but it is a positive trend.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 17, 2008, 06:45:37 PM
Andy,

What i don't get is that while her hb was normal,why was she feeling so tired and down in the last week,and she was looking so pale that i was assuming that her hb must be low,She was so down that she kept saying "mama something is happening inside me",and this scared me.She couldn't explain what exactly was wrong but i felt like she was feeling shortness of breath.I hope carao will keep helping her and we can increase her transfusion intervals,may be a couple of transfusions can help us make sure about it.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 17, 2008, 06:49:04 PM
Hi Lloyd,

From where should i order more bottles of carao? My daughter is taking 4 spoons per day and she is on her third bottle.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on October 17, 2008, 07:19:33 PM
Zaini,

Paleness and shortness of breath are both signs of hemolysis taking place. Of course, it could be something else unrelated to thal, but a rise in reticulocyte count would be related to hemolysis, also. And this brings up a question for thals. Can you tell when hemolysis is taking place? Is there something inside that you can feel?
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 17, 2008, 10:18:46 PM
Zaini,

What you describe has also occurred with my son on couple of occassions.  He says that he cannot express what is going on, and he also seems to be out of breath.  His doctor however says that his lungs are perfectly clear, his O2 is 100%, and his lung capacity is not only normal but it is above average.  I am also confused by this and it also scared me.  He described this feeling last week when his hg was 10.4.  Maybe as Andy says the kids are experiencing the symptoms of hemolysis - and maybe the feel it more as they get closer to a hemoglobin of 10. 

Have other thals ever noticed this? 

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on October 18, 2008, 12:14:37 AM
I am so much interested in getting an answer to your question Andy ? Maybe older thal can help us in this. Does hemolysis takes place daily with the same rate???


I know Zaini and Sharmin how frightening this sentence can be, i wish you will never have this situation again.  :hugfriend :hugfriend

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 18, 2008, 06:06:33 AM
Hi,

I am sure it must be hemolysis ,to tell you the truth when ever my hb is low i also feel short ness of breath and a burden on chest.

Andy,

I think you were right about her dosage of ferriprox and desferal as her ferritin came almost similar,few months back it was 1232 and now it's 1259,so i think we need to re check her doses as she has also gained a bit of weight,her weight is 28 kg now,unfortunately i didn't go to hospital for some reasons today,so i have asked my husband to throughly discuss it with the doctor,but what do you say what her dosage should be?.

Manal,

Thanks a lot  :hugfriend

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on October 18, 2008, 06:23:10 AM
The formula for Ferriprox (L1) is 75 mg/kg daily, taken over 3 doses. 75x28=2100, so 2000 would be the normal dose. The doctor monitoring Zainab should be the one to approve this. If she is tolerating it well and has no drop in white cells, the doctor will probably adjust the dosage as she grows.

Something of interest I learned about at the Apo Pharma booth at the conference was that they have released Ferriprox Oral Solution. It is a liquid form of deferiprone (L1) and has tested for far fewer instances of gastric complaints. It is available in a few countries and is going through the approval process in others. Hopes are for a late 2009 release in Pakistan. This should be much easier for children to take.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 18, 2008, 04:31:31 PM
Andy,

Once the hg drops to 95 - 90 the body begins to retic.  Blood tests at this level often reveal some reticulocytes.  When the marrow is higher the bone marrow is usually suppressed, I wonder if the children feel this way as their hg is falling to 10 because this is when the marrow begins to get signals to "kick in".   If this is the case, children may actually be aware of a strange sensation in their bodies - perhaps the adult patients would be better at describing it.  I think our children are now old enough to realize something is going on, but not old enough to know how to explain it to us.  Maybe they have always experience this, but they were not as 'aware' as they are now becoming that changes are occurring in their bodies. The breathlessness is the worst symptom, I believe I have felt what you describe too Zaini. 

Andy, is this a possible cause of the strange feeling during the last week before tx?

Sharmin



Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 18, 2008, 06:43:30 PM
Well, The ward doctor didn't surprise me by saying that everything is fine and we don't need to change anything, :mad according to him 1259 is the lowest ferritin level he has ever seen in any chronically transfused patient. I am going to talk to her hemo,but to be very honest she is not much help either,i'll be the one to remind her that the L1 dosage is 75 mg/kg and we should chnage the dose according to the weight and quantity of blood,and then she'll just sign it to make it official  :mad,or may be she'll say the same thing, who knows? some times doctors annoy me so much i wanna yell at them.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on October 18, 2008, 08:15:52 PM
Zaini,

What you said here is common. In many countries, doctors don't base their idea of what an acceptable ferritin level is on what is best, but what has been practical for patients in that country to achieve. This has been greatly influenced by the cost of chelation and the problem getting patients to comply. I have commonly heard that doctors tell patients that a ferritin level below 3000 is acceptable. We know that long term this is not true. But it has been the best doctors could hope for in patients so they have accepted it. As chelation has become more available and easier to comply with, doctors need to adjust their thinking. We all know that getting below 1000 is the goal of chelation and that the work involved getting there is well worth it.

Patients and parents all have a basic right to know everything about the medical conditions that face them, regardless of what some doctors or even governments, such as in Singapore, may believe. Many doctors find it annoying and a challenge to their egos when patients know more than they do, and try to deter patients from becoming informed. Don't be deterred. Dr Marwaha was very disturbed that patients were not given access to medical talks in Singapore and he said that the parents know more about thalassemia than the doctors. If only more doctors could be like him. Parents have to be firm and demand the best for their kids. Ferritin readings can be misleading and we know that working to keep it consistently low is very important. Insist that your child can do even better. Maybe you can convince the doctor that this is how all patients should feel.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Maako on October 19, 2008, 12:10:23 AM
Andy,

What i don't get is that while her hb was normal,why was she feeling so tired and down in the last week,and she was looking so pale that i was assuming that her hb must be low,

Zaini.

Zaini,

And this brings up a question for thals. Can you tell when hemolysis is taking place? Is there something inside that you can feel?

Zaini,

What you describe has also occurred with my son on couple of occassions.  He says that he cannot express what is going on, and he also seems to be out of breath.  His doctor however says that his lungs are perfectly clear, his O2 is 100%, and his lung capacity is not only normal but it is above average.  I am also confused by this and it also scared me.  He described this feeling last week when his hg was 10.4.  Maybe as Andy says the kids are experiencing the symptoms of hemolysis - and maybe the feel it more as they get closer to a hemoglobin of 10. 

Have other thals ever noticed this? 

Sharmin



Hi Zaini, Andy and Sharmin

I feel this way on several occassions, even though i can't understand why too.. Even in the last transfusion i had, I was feeling extremely tired and out of breath when i climbed stairs and walked about too much.. I thought my hb must be something like 7 now... (it was nearly 3 and half weeks by then since i transfused..)... I even stayed in bed one whole day, just dint have the energy to get up...

But when i went to the haemotologist and got hb checked, it was almost 10. (9.8 to be exact). Dr. Alan Teh saw how pale and tired i was, but both of us were surprised by the results... he gave transfusion anyway... He trusted my instincts when i said i was feeling that way...

this is not the first time it happened to me.. and i donno how to explain it... sometimes i ask if its in my mind? to imagine that since its near to my transfusion my hb must be this low  :rotfl

but then, how would zainab and little A imagine that, right? so i guess we do know when we are experiencing hemolyis...

any other thals? whats your experience?
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 19, 2008, 12:53:40 AM
Maako,

thank you for that explanation, which our little ones are not able to provide for us.  Maybe it is infact the feeling you get when the bone marrow is beginning to become active. 

Whether a non thal individual has a hg 110 or 100 it doesn't matter because the marrow is always active.  In a transfused thal major the hg is suppressed when it is 115 (lets say) but perhaps it gets messages to become active closer to a hg of 10 - and that is when thals can feel the hemolysis.  I am guessing that this is a possiblitity.  Maybe also near the end of the transfusion the red cells are getting old (because thals don't replace them on their own) and their oxygen carrying capacity is reduced somewhat... 

It is difficult to understand, but I know that some doctors here recommend having smaller tx every two weeks rather than a normal tx every 4 weeks.  They say that it is optimal for growth, I wonder if this is the reason.   

I understand that red blood cells are replaced in the human body about every 28 days, then they are broken down and new red cells are made. 

Does this make sense to anyone else?  It makes me wonder if the small tx every 2 weeks is in fact best - BUT it can be a big lifestyle change for many. 

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on October 19, 2008, 01:03:13 AM
Quote
.. and i donno how to explain it... sometimes i ask if its in my mind? to imagine that since its near to my transfusion my hb must be this low  


Maako,I think that sometimes this could be right. Before knowing that i am myself  has anemia, i never complained from anything but after my knowledge i just some times feel tired from things i used to do without any problem and i refer them to the phrase '' because i have low Hb''

For this i am would want to raise my child knowing that he is just different NOT diseased. I think that uncoinciously (spelling....) when you know that you are diseased even if you are leading a positive life, you tend to put limitations to your abilities. I don't know if i am right in this thinking or not or even it is my still hidden thoughts of in accepting but all what i am sure of is wishing to give my child the very normal life

But again young children wouldn't realize this as you questioned Maako,so there could be definetly symptoms for hymolysis??????

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 19, 2008, 07:03:55 AM
Thanks Andy,

For your support,actually the ward doctors meet a lot of thals,and sadly most of them have very high levels of iron,at least that's the situation here in my country,sometimes i wonder if i should start a campaign to convince patients to comply with the chelation and bring down their ferritin levels? At least in the hospital where we are going?  but the thing is every body is not able to afford every chelator,so they try to use what ever they can get.
What i don't get is why doctors give them a sign that it's ok to have iron overload while you are chronically transfused,i,ve seen patients with such high iron levels that it horrifies me,most parents doesn't have the basic knowledge,and unfortunately they accept that their kid is going to die anyway,so why try? This is pathetic,i've seen well off rich people with the same approach,A few months back i saw a little girl,younger then my daughter in the hospital,i don't know what her ferritin level was at that time,but when after a few months i saw her again,she was com[pletely changed,with the darker skin,and the tell tale signs of thal major,that means that her parents weren't complying with the chelation,since she was very young to be compliant by herself,and i know that she belongs to a well off family.Often when i meet moms,educated moms in the hospital,i literally force them to join this forum,but sadly i haven't seen a single one of them here,well the least i can do is keep reminding them,
I'll ask my daughter's hemo about the dosage,if she doesn't approve it,i am gonna change it anyway.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Narendra on October 22, 2008, 02:54:26 PM
Here is the update on the Carao Use and results for my niece

1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao – Yes
2. Date when carao is begun – 8th July 2008
3. Dose given – 2 Teaspoon per day
4. Age and diagnosis of patient – 3 and half years (Thal Major)
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) – Between 9 and 10
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao. Of course, the date of the test(s) must be included – 9.4 (18th Oct 2008)
7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - No
8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient – Nothing visible
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 22, 2008, 02:58:57 PM
Thank you kindly Narendra,

Big hugs to your little niece  :hugfriend :hugfriend

Sharmin
Title: PLLLZ HELP about carao
Post by: maryo0m on October 24, 2008, 01:09:46 AM
Hi Lloyd , Andy and all members :flowers,

I just wanted to ask about Carao because I will order it this week  :yay, My mum keeps asking me to give it a try :yap , I'm concerned I live in  KUWAIT  will I be able to have it shipped to my country???? :think

and If yes how many tsp  do you recomend for a  21  year old???? :dunno

Thanx a bunch :thankyou ,

Mariam :hiyagirl

 
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on October 24, 2008, 03:49:19 AM
Hello Mariam,

To be honest, I don't know about postal delivery to Kuwait.  Over the last 6 years, we have never shipped there, I think.  If you are reasonably sure that you can receive airmail from other countries without loss, then you could go ahead and order it.  However, I request you order not more than 2 bottles.  They would go in a single package.  If those bottles arrive OK, then you could order more if you wish.  We guarantee delivery. That is, we reship or refund if the package does not arrive.

I recommend 4 teaspoons/day for a 21 year old.  I hope you get great results, and will post those results to this forum.

Regards,
Lloyd
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: maryo0m on October 24, 2008, 05:03:03 AM
AWWWW :-\

Well thank you for your efforts Lloyd :smiley, I would be able to get it if it was shipped to any of the Arab countries, but if not I'll see about that :huh, I'll do my best because there is a big number of Thals here in kuwait who wanna give this a try :cheer...

I appreciate your efforts thanx again,

Mariam :hiyagirl
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on October 24, 2008, 06:24:36 AM
Maryoom, i have received the bottles in Egypt soi guess you can too. Good Luck

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: maryo0m on October 24, 2008, 09:31:57 AM
YAAAAY thanks alot MANAL , I'll talk to my friends in Eygpt but , where in Eygpt do they deliver it to please inform me with details ,


thnx,

mariam
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on October 24, 2008, 10:52:57 AM
You are welcome Mariam. I received them directly at my home address

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: maryo0m on October 24, 2008, 10:56:03 AM
awsome thats good to know thnx again
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 28, 2008, 01:45:27 AM
Andy,

Can some of the symptoms that Zaini, Maako and I describe during the last week before tx be related to hypoxia and an increased volume of blood flow during the last week due to the bodies response to low hg (the body produces large volumes of blood in response to the low hg level) causing pulmonary hypertension?  This really makes me want to keep my son's hg above 95 at all times!

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on October 28, 2008, 03:07:50 AM
Sharmin,

The reported symptoms are fairly vague so it would be hard to say definitely, but the hypoxia and increased hemolysis can both lead to PHT. This is a main reason that acceptable pre-transfusion hemoglobin levels have been reconsidered in recent years. Preventing the problems associated with low hemoglobin levels is becoming more of a focus in thalassemia, especially as the effects of higher Hb are observed in chelation compliant patients. This will cut down on low oxygen problems and should also decrease hemolysis, by reducing bone marrow activity which of course means fewer bad red cells to be destroyed. Whether any of this or something else is responsible for the described sensations is probably a guess. These are the types of symptoms that would not be noted by most doctors so there may be little if any awareness that patients experience these symptoms.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 28, 2008, 12:19:45 PM
Andy,

Can some of the symptoms that Zaini, Maako and I describe during the last week before tx be related to hypoxia and an increased volume of blood flow during the last week due to the bodies response to low hg (the body produces large volumes of blood in response to the low hg level) causing pulmonary hypertension?  This really makes me want to keep my son's hg above 95 at all times!

Sharmin

Sharmin,

My daughter's hb at that time was above 9.5,it came 9.9,that's why i was surprised.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 28, 2008, 04:20:16 PM
Although it is near impossible to predict what causes these similar symptoms the week before tx (as the hg nears 100) - especially if we are not sure of the actual prevalence of this isssue, I wonder if the blood cells' oxygen carrying capacity decreases after a certain amount of time - as they come close to their 'expiry date'.  People are always making new blood cells in place of the old ones - red blood cells have a life of 28 days after which the body replaces them.  Non thal people usually make more red blood cells when their red blood cells become less effecient.

I wonder therefore if by the fourth week,
the blood's oxygen carrying capacity is reduced - causing some hypoxia - resulting in breathlessness
the body recognizes the hypoxia and the dropping hg - and in response the marrow feels the need to become active - increasing the volume of blood somewhat - causing pulmonary hypertension. 

In reality, it is very hard to imagine what goes on - or whether anything happens or not.  It is a little distressing when the kids don't feel right and even more when they seem breathless.  I am wondering if the best solution to all of this would be to have smaller bi weekly transfusions -  so that the red blood cells are fresher (than they would be after four weeks) and there would be less drastic change in hg all of the time.   

What do you guys think?

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on October 29, 2008, 02:05:19 AM
But Sharmin, does transfusing half the amount of blood will increase the hb the same as transfusing all the amount needed one time?????? I think it wouldn't and if this right so we are again faced with a low Hb state?? Waht is right???

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 29, 2008, 02:20:04 AM
Hi Manal,

I see how it can seem that way - but think of it as re- filling a glass while it is still half full rather than waiting for it to be empty.  You are still putting in the same volume but in smaller intervals.

For transfusions it would work this way - lets say that after a transfusion my son's hg is 140 - after two weeks it is 120 and after 4 weeks it is 100.  If we transfuse him again after two weeks it would only take half the volume of hg to get him up to 140 again compared to what it would have taken were he to drop to 100 before being transfused.  So basically we tx him to 140, let him drop to 120 and then transfuse him to 140 again.  Basically he will always have a higher hg. 

Does that make more sense?

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: poo gill on October 29, 2008, 09:18:18 AM
Hi Sharni

If bi monthly was such a beneficial thing, then why would world wide doctors prescribe it monthly or when the body needs, there has to be a catch to it or else all the kids would have gone thru bi monthly. maybe it was not prescribed due to the extra pricks and then more hospital visits. It is a good point to think though, I have only come actoss people who have got bi monthly in emergency sitautions or when they were sick and body was not coping up.

Also one time I came across a mother who said that the blood transfusion has to be done very slowly over a period of 6 hours or more, cos according to her the faster you give (in govt hospitals they are short of resourcres as in beds) the faster the hb comes down. Meaning if the transfusion has been given over a peiod of 4 to 6 hrs the next required blood transfusion  requirement will be over a month and if it is faster then her daughter needed transfusion with in 21 days. Have you also experienced this??????.

Manal - A sure shot way of finding out haemolysis is to monitor the childs urine colour. Sometimes the urine colour is transparent and healthy and over the same month in many days I have seen that urine colour has changed to brown, dark brown, orangish. It is all haemolysis. Also when the child is down with a viral infection then there is  definetely more hameolysis happening in the body.

There is another thing which I have noticed with my son is .. that there are days when the white part of his eyes are clear not absolutely like healthy kids but abt 80 % and then there is a yellowish layer which forms slowly and goes off ..it is a monthly process. I see it quite often. Doctors say it is ok. Guess something to be with bilirubin. Has any one noticed this too?????

Take care

Puja

 
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on October 29, 2008, 10:31:01 AM
Thanks Sharmin, makes a lot of sense :wink

Puja, thanks for your advice, i will  keep monitering.

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 29, 2008, 11:55:11 AM
Hi,

Doctor at the hospital once told me that if you transfuse a patient with hb of above 10,it puts pressure on heart which is not good,i don't know if it's entirely true,just sharing it.And the head nurse told me that a bag of blood should be transfused with in 2 hours,or bacterias get developed in the blood,is that correct?

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 29, 2008, 04:41:45 PM
Hi friends,

i
Quote
f bi monthly was such a beneficial thing, then why would world wide doctors prescribe it monthly or when the body needs, there has to be a catch to it or else all the kids would have gone thru bi monthly.

I think that this standard is used for a few reasons - one is so that patients do not receive unlimited volumes of blood - so 4 weeks and a level between 9 - 10 has been adapted - also for consistency between different hospitals and centers.  Also, being that around fours weeks is also the life span of red cells it makes sense that way too. 

However, some of the prominent centers are recommending bi weekly transfusions - I have spoken with some parents being seen in New York - and they have told me that their doctors have recommended txs every 2 weeks for optimal health.  These parents have also said that they have had no complications with their children and their children are never tired because they are never low.  Numerous patients in my city also elect to do this - some adults even come in for a small tx once a week because it works best with their work or university schedules.  Some people prefer the more frequent txs because they find that their visits are shorter on any given tx day. 

The other thing you can look at is exposure to more donors - I don't think you are getting exposed to more donors because after a certain weight (depending on the size of units) patients get more than one unit anyway.  Therefore if you were to receive blood from a single unit with each transfusion - you are being exposed to the same number of donors.  If a patient were to receive 8cc of blood per kg of their body weight every two weeks - then they would average 16cc/kg every four weeks. 

The upside of this is that patients would not have symptoms of low hg, the red blood cells would not age all at once near 4 weeks post tx becoming less efficient (I am guessing that this actually happens), the body would marrow would not be active at all - so blood volume would not increase - (increased blood volume can lead to pulmonary hypertension).  Also, with each transfusion you are giving a smaller volume of blood - so you are in fact putting less pressure on the heart by not changing the volume too much at once. 

The negative effects would be - as Puja has mentioned - more pokes - veins getting tired from being poked more frequently because they haven't had a chance to rest.  More days in the hospital, more cross match tests etc.  Problems with standardizing what volume of blood each patient should have.  Also, the emotional effect on children can be bigger if they are in the hospital more often - twice as much. 

Quote
Doctor at the hospital once told me that if you transfuse a patient with hb of above 10,it puts pressure on heart which is not good,i don't know if it's entirely true,just sharing it.

From what I have been told, getting large volumes of blood at one time (greater than 20cc/kg) can put pressure on the heart.  The hemoglobin itself does not affect it.  If we think about it - within the first hour after tx begins the hemoglobin is above 100 - and then we continue to transfuse without causing damage to the heart (am I making sense?)  So I can't see why transfusing while hg is above 100 can put pressure on the heart.  I will ask our doctor though, maybe it is something that I am not able to understand.  Our doctor often emphasizes that the less volume we transfuse at one time the less likely we are to increase the pressure on the heart.  For this reason also, the smaller bi weekly transfusions may be good. 

Quote
Also one time I came across a mother who said that the blood transfusion has to be done very slowly over a period of 6 hours or more, cos according to her the faster you give (in govt hospitals they are short of resourcres as in beds) the faster the hb comes down. Meaning if the transfusion has been given over a peiod of 4 to 6 hrs the next required blood transfusion  requirement will be over a month and if it is faster then her daughter needed transfusion with in 21 days.

I think that this is true, because you are causing less damage to the red blood cells when you infuse them slower.  Also, it is much easier on the body because you are increasing the volume slower.  It is also good for people who have antibodies, slow rate, small transfusions. 

Quote
And the head nurse told me that a bag of blood should be transfused with in 2 hours,or bacterias get developed in the blood,is that correct?

Zaini, the standard here is to hang a bag of blood for a maximum of four hours.  After the four hours, they hang a new unit and change the tubing as well.  Maybe there is a difference because of the process they use to store the blood. 

My main reason to begin thinking about - bi weekly tx - is wondering what is best for our growing children throughout the month.  Also, how to reduce pressure the the heart and lungs due to larger blood volumes. 

My thought is that, if as the hg decreases below 100 - (an some retics can be found soon after the hg decreases below 98) - that the marrow may begin to increase the blood volume on top of that the kids get on big blast of transfused blood (15 - 20cc/kg) which can be 400cc+ in these little children (for my son it is around 534cc).  I worry that the increased volume (as small as it may be at this stage) that the body creates + transfused blood volume - may put pressure on the heart. 

Also, in the week before tx - the small amount of retic ing that the kids may do (it tends to be very little in thal majors 2% to 8% retics at this stage) and the increased hemolysis during this time may put the kids at some risk of fragments building up over time. 

I can see that most people do well with the four week schedule - but if there is room for improvement and general well being maybe this is worth discussing with our doctors.  I will ask Oakland during our next visit. 

I think my post has gotten pretty long.....so I had better sign off  :wink

Sharmin


Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 29, 2008, 04:44:43 PM
Zaini,

At what speed do they generally transfuse Zainab?  For my son it is 90cc/hr.  When he had his antibody they had slowed it down to 80cc/hr. 

Sharmin   :hugfriend
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 30, 2008, 04:06:46 AM
Sharmin,

They don't actually set any speed,450 ml of blood is transfused in approx 3 to 4 hours,should we ask to increase the duration?

Quote
I think that this is true, because you are causing less damage to the red blood cells when you infuse them slower.  Also, it is much easier on the body because you are increasing the volume slower.  It is also good for people who have antibodies, slow rate, small transfusions. 

May be this was the reason of decreased duration between her transfusions? ??? initially when we started to go for transfusions,they use to put a device with the blood bag to set the speed/hour,but now they don't.Should i ask them to start using the device again? and if yes then what should be the infusion rate?

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 30, 2008, 04:15:48 AM
Hi Zaini,

I don't think that the speed is extreme - it works out to be 113 - 150 cc/hr - which is higher than the rate which my son is getting it at.  I was told that more blood cells are damage when you transfuse them faster - I will find out from our clinic what the optimal speed is. 

It is important to increase blood volume slowly - it is better for the heart and I believe that it makes transfusions last longer. 

Let me see what I can find out,

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on October 30, 2008, 10:03:33 AM
Some times it really hurts that doctors ignore such small things which can benefit patients in big way,like this MAY BE the reason for my daughter's decreasing intervals between her transfusions,and doctors do know very well that the more transfusions the more iron over load,then why do they ignore such things,really i don't like talking to my daughter's doctor,neither who is in the ward nor her hemo,they treat me like a low-life,when ever i ask a question they look at me like i have gone nuts,they can't believe that any one beside them can know anything,it sucks.

Sharmin,do take your time,as you are already doin g too much for all of us,we are lucky to have you as a moderator  :hugfriend.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: nice friend on October 30, 2008, 11:47:10 AM
hi zaini ,
i mange the speed of my blood and desferal onmy own during the Tx . i never give up , when nurse came and slow down or fast my bloood or desferal i set that back to my own suitable speed :wink :grin  doesn't matter wat will happen next when they will see the difference in the speeds they setled ... those are practicing staf to a years but i m having Tx to a long time than their experience thats why i confident about wat i m doing ...  about TX yeah my father told me to have less tx bocze it will load iron more on you but i discussed him that once i manageed my Hb then  i will  comply agressively with the chelation to take it back  on normal levels and then exjade ... i think doctors thought that they are more experienced after reading books , they are but they cant feel wat a patient can feel during chelationa and Tx ...  i hope i m right ....

have your say i m right or wrong ??...

Take Care
Umair
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 30, 2008, 02:59:03 PM
Hi Zaini,

I don't want to worry you until I know for sure what the transfusion rate should be.  I know that it is safe to transfuse at faster rates, but our doctor prefers the slower rate.  We have an appointment on Monday so I will ask at that time. 

Don't worry, nothing is too much work for my little Zainab  :hugfriend  I looove her new picture - she is so adorable - god bless her :)

Umair,

Make sure that you don't let your hg drop too low!  Don't let it go below 90 because that would not be good for you, it could in fact damage your heart and lungs.  Don't compromise your hg for lowering your iron - just keep chelating but keep your hg up!

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on October 31, 2008, 08:26:55 PM
Hey guys,

My son's doctor has asked me whether we should begin doing bi weekly transfusions (smaller transfusions, slower rate) or whether we should continue with the monthly ones.   This time he received a full transfusion (on Monday it will be 2 weeks) - so hopefully he will go another couple of weeks.  After that I am considering the biweekly schedule.  Do you guys think that it is a good idea? 

Andy, do you have an opinion as to whether monthly or bi weekly transfusions are healthier?  Are there any actual benefits of the reasons I have listed above as to why I would chose the bi weekly transfusions?

Thanks,

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on October 31, 2008, 09:26:00 PM
Monthly rather than bi-weekly is mostly a matter of convenience. I think that twice monthly makes more sense if it is possible. It guards against having any period when the Hb is lower than the minimum you want to see. I think the condition of the veins is a big factor so it may rely on how easy it is to find a vein twice a month.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Canadian_Family on November 01, 2008, 01:31:59 AM
Hi Zaini,

I read your posts in this thread, seriously my blood boiled when I read the attitude of the doctors in Pakistan. I think they don't know enough or they do not update themselves accordingly. I think the latter is true. This is ridiculous behavior.

Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 01, 2008, 07:37:38 PM
Thanks C.F,

That's the way it is,i hav an appointment with my daughter's hemo on 11th november, and i am sure we are not going to get anything informative out of her,it's like a foot ball game,when ever i ask ward doctor anything,he kicks me towards hemotologist ( ask dr zehra first),and when i ask anything to her hemo she says ( dr anwar i.e the ward doctor must know it well),and still she had the nerves to yell at me when i didn't visit her for 5 months once,i don't get it why she insists on visiting her when she doesnt give any updates or information,her per visit fee is rupees 1000 in which i can buy two weeks supply of desferal,why waste hard earned money?
And this time i am going to tell her that,once she utters the words "ask dr anwar" i am going to tell her to not ever ask us to visit her.My hubby works literally like a slave to give us a good life,this man is loosing precious years of his life,and for what,for her holiday trips to America?

I am sorry i got off track.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Kathy11 on November 01, 2008, 10:26:52 PM
Hi Zaini.
YOU never have to apologize for your truth.
it a safe way to vent your concern.
you have the right to get answers to your daughters'medical condition.

You and your husband are doing the best you can. :clap :clap

Take care with love from  kathy
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Ayesha on November 02, 2008, 08:49:34 AM
Zaini: well its really sad to hear all that happening to you, me and Salman are patients of Dr. Usman, I think you should contact him? he doesn't force or yell at us for visiting him, we don't visit him for 6 months or sometimes a year, its okay with him... he never insisted us..

he also never tell us anything new  :rotfl but he never ask you for unwanted visits, i guess all the hematologist know less than patients :P its okay naa :D

we have damn good knowledge and blessings like, net, thalpal, friends, andy, sharmin hehe what not? we will use them if hematologist did'nt tell, its ok na :)

i remember when Salman was on tablets Fosamax, its bit expensive, i asked my friends were for alternate, and I got to know about Reventa, its cheap and same formula, I asked Dr. Usman and he happily agreed to me ;d

cool n calm doctor!

Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 02, 2008, 11:14:51 AM
Thanks Kathy and Ayesha,

Is Dr Usman on the panel of Aga khan?What's his full name? once i tried to get dr Khursheed's appointment ,but i was told that for peads heamatology,i can only visit dr zehra,although i know kids who are under supervision og dr Khursheed.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Gabri on November 02, 2008, 02:28:43 PM
Hey guys,

My son's doctor has asked me whether we should begin doing bi weekly transfusions (smaller transfusions, slower rate) or whether we should continue with the monthly ones.   This time he received a full transfusion (on Monday it will be 2 weeks) - so hopefully he will go another couple of weeks.  After that I am considering the biweekly schedule.  Do you guys think that it is a good idea? 

Hi Shamin,

long time ago I've posted this in an other place. It could help in finding an answer to your question.

I think it will depend where you put your focus on, the cost, blood consumption in a year, quantity of iron load or maybe the time you will spend going to hospital in a year........

I try to make an example.

Supposing we have three thal. major patient each one with same mutation, would mean they need same quantity of blood. But each one have a different frequency to be transfused.
The first (A) will go every 2 weeks receiving 1 unit of blood
The 2. (B) every 3 weeks getting 2 units
The 3. (C) receives every 4 weeks 3 units
Remember, we supposed they have the identical disorder.

Who do you think will have the highest iron loading after a year (52 weeks)????? :huh

Let's make little bit of mathematic

A) 52 weeks : 2 weeks = 26 times he goes to get transfusion
26 x 1 units = 26 units of blood in one year.
Each unit of blood contains 200- 225 mg of iron, so the annual iron load will be 26x 200-225 = 5200-5850 mg

B) 52:3=17,33
17,33 x 2 = 34,66
34,66 x 200-225 = 6932-7798,5 mg

C) 52 : 4 = 13 13 x 3 = 39
39 x 200-225 = 7800-8775 mg

Summery:

Case   Frequency of trans.   units per trans.   times of transf. per year   units per year   iron load per year   
A         be-weekly                             1                26                                   26             5200-5850   
B         three-weekly                         2                17,33                               34,33         6032-7798,5   
C         monthly                                3                13                                   39             7800-8775   
[/color]



 
Compared with Thal A), thal C) will receive 13 units more and accumulate 2600-2925 mg iron more within a year. How much it will be in ten years? How much more drug Thal C will need to get same iron level as thal A)?  :dunno
I think it is good to have these facts in mind and consider all other factors to make an individual decision. Maybe you can go three-weekly for transfusion.

The relation between frequency of transfusion and iron load was described in medical article from Piomelli et al. Ann. N. Y. Acad.Sci. 445, 256-267 in 1985

God bless you

Gabri
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on November 02, 2008, 03:18:41 PM
Thank you Gabri so much for this clarification, how come I never thought it goes this way. So taking one unit every two weeks means  400mg of iron in a month while taking three units every month means 600mg of iron, so definetly bi monthly is the best

It looks so simple this way but if this should be decreasing iron overload why it is left to patients to decide on their own? i think i have lots of questions but can not put them in words but i have one which is the rate of hemolysis, does it differ in a child than an adult, meaning that after two weeks is one unit suitable for an adult as well as for child 

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 02, 2008, 04:18:23 PM
Gabri,

Thank you kindly:):) 

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Gabri on November 03, 2008, 06:21:36 PM
Gabri,

Thank you kindly:):) 

Sharmin

You are Welcome, Sharmin

It looks so simple this way but if this should be decreasing iron overload why it is left to patients to decide on their own? i think i have lots of questions but can not put them in words but i have one which is the rate of hemolysis, does it differ in a child than an adult, meaning that after two weeks is one unit suitable for an adult as well as for child 

manal

Hemolysis is influenced by to many factors. Therefor it is difficult to compare an adult with an child. Some thal majors have higher hemolysis than other thal majors because of differences in mutation, some kinds off medicines let increase hemolysis (for example antibiotic) also some sicknesses like flue, inflammation....

You will see also differences during a lifetime of a man. I heard often that peoples blood consumption varies.  You have to consider the height and weight of people and how active they are. Usually children will receive only one unit per transfusion, when they become teens the often will need two or three units because of his adolescence. 



Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on November 03, 2008, 11:32:01 PM
Thanks Gabri :hugfriend

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 10, 2008, 10:17:42 PM
Zaini,

The nurses at our hospital confirmed that the standard in Canada is to transfuse a child Little A's size 80cc/hr during the first 15minutes and then increase to it to 90cc/hr after that.  Although higher rates are safe, it is preferred to adhere to this standard as it allows you to stay in control of the situation.  For example, if the child did not react well to the blood - you would know before a significant amount of blood has been administered.  Also, it is easier on the child's heart to transfuse slowly.  The nurses were not able to confirm if there is any association with the size of needle used for a child this size - and the possible damage to red cells if the speed were to be increased (I believe that I have heard this before) - so that is something I will need to confirm. 

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 11, 2008, 03:12:44 AM
Sharmin,

Thanks for the info,my daughter's transfusion is on coming saturday,and i am determined to give her a slow transfusion,i'll manage to go for 3 hours per unit,i just want to check if hb stays longer that way,she is still on carao,and her grand father has asked his friend to order more,but to tell you the truth i am a bit confused now,what with every one emphasising on biweekly transfusions and i was trying to extend the interval during her transfusions,although bi weekly transfusions are not an option for us due to cost problems,but i keep wondering if it was better to let her transfuse every three weeks  ??? ???.
We have an appointment with her hemo today,can you suggest any question i should be asking,it's in the afternoon,sorry for the late question.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on November 11, 2008, 03:51:30 PM
Zaini,

Since your daughter is intermedia I would not suggest more frequent transfusions. It should be based on her Hb each time.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 11, 2008, 06:05:20 PM
Zaini,

For now I think that the most important thing to manage is the volume and rate of blood transfusion.  If you are on the 4 week schedule make sure that she is getting 14 - 16cc/kg (to the nearest whole number).  The rate should begin at 80cc/kg and after the first 15 minutes it can be 90cc/kg.  Here we hang one unit of blood up to 4 hours. 

In our son's case we are trying to limit his transfusions to whole units for now rather than breaking into a second unit for a few ccs of blood -  we are trying to limit his exposure to donors because of his past experience with antibodies.  For that reason, it is worth it for us to go in every 2 to 3 weeks because we are getting a smaller volume of blood each time. 

For most children the recommendation is still what I listed above.  I will talk to the docs in Oakland about this during our next appointment.  My curiosity about this was raised when I spoke with parents in NY and further when I listened to Dr. Wood and Dr. Vichinsky's lectures.
Most of the benefits my own perception, the accepted standard is still the monthly transfusions. 

I will let you know what they say in Oakland about this:):)  I really hope that they pay attention to the rate from now on:)

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 11, 2008, 06:35:52 PM
Thanks very much for your input Andy and Sharmin,

We visited her hemo today,and it was after 5 months,and for once she accepted that our daughter is doing great Alhumdulillah,and she gave me the credit for it,it was a nice change of tone,i told her about carao,she wasn't much interested but she didn't throw any sarcasm either,i told her that all my knowledge comes from THIS forum and she wrote down the site's address.She asked me to meet a couple whose daughter was diagnosed with thal 6 months back,and told me that i should ask more moms at hospital to join the forum,i told her that i have done so but unfortunately no one has joined till yet.When i told her that some of our members went to Singapore conference she was really impressed.

She said no to increaseing ferriprox dosage,saying that your daughter is doing fine with the current dose so stick to it,now what should i do,previously we were doing desferal 3 nights per week,but now i have started 4 nights,to which she didn't object..

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 11, 2008, 08:34:19 PM
Zaini,

I am glad that you had a productive conversation with Zainab's hematologist.  I hope to see more people from your hospital join our site, it will make a big difference in their lives. 

You should be very proud of yourself for taking care of your little girl the way you have, may god give you the courage and strength to continue doing what you do.  May our little angel continue to grow and thrive:)  I am very proud of you:):) 

I agree with you, desferal has fewer side effects and is the 'safest' chelating drug, therefore if you are going to increase a drug for chelation it is better to increase the desferal rather than the L1 - because Zainab is tolerating the dose she is currently at so we should not mess around with that.  Little A is on daily exjade and desferal 5X a week, 12 hours a day.  This is the dose that the docs in Oakland put him on.  Once his ferritin is below 1000 he will be on 3X a week desferal, and once his ferritin reaches 600 he will be on exjade alone.   

We have a SQUID booked for February, let's hope for the best.    The antibody screen on his last blood test came back as NEGATIVE last time, so let's hope that it stays that way and his transfusion requirement remains low.... 

I think that it would benefit your daughter to have her ferritin levels below 1000 before she enters adolescence - the years in which children grow and develop.  That is why I am being very aggressive with my son's chelation right now because I want him to grow and develop normally - and I don't want iron to be deposited in (most importantly his heart, liver, pancreas) his hormone producing glands during these years.  I think that this should be a priority in all kids in this age group - to get the iron levels as low as safely possible.  We are lucky that our kids are on combination therapy - 4 or 5 days of desferal is quite low and they can (god willing) escape most of the side effects of the drug - while maintaining good hg levels.   

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 12, 2008, 03:16:29 AM
Thanks a lot Sharmin,I couldn't have done it with out you and with out this forum  :hugfriend,I am trying hard to get her ferritin down,to keep it below 1000 all the time,right now there is a bit availability issue with desferal,just pray that we get desferal as soon as possible,i keep bugging my hubby,but he can't do much if it's not available in the market.

When did you last check Little A's ferritin? best of luck with the SQUID. :hugfriend

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 12, 2008, 06:20:54 AM
Zaini,

How long has this issue been going on, the difficulty in obtaining desferal?  Do you have any desferal at all? 

I also don't know if I agree with the doc that ferritin needs to be below 1000 before beginning exjade.  I commented in the following thread:

http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=2271.msg20389#new

Please keep us posted on the desferal issue.  Desferal is the safest and best understood chelator, I hope it continues to be available. 

Sharmin

Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on November 12, 2008, 11:41:17 AM
There should be something done to solve this problem Zaini, i assume many are suffering from the same situation. Some people would not tolerate Asunra/exjade for a reason or another and desferal should be available . Is there a any governamental place where you can send a petition oranything telling them that even if Asunra is cheap, some people for medical reasons will not stopusing desferal.

There  should be something done her. We can not repeat again what happened with Sajid :mad :mad :mad

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 12, 2008, 02:18:35 PM
Thanks for your concern guys  :hugfriend We finally got desferal after one week,desferal availability is becoming an issue,i believe i hv told you guys earlier,that we don't buy packed desferal from novartis,the one we buy someone told us comes from Iran,there is a big difference in cost,if we buy through proper channel :) per vial costs 185 rupees,although the open one costs per vial 80 rupees,and thats a huge difference,there are lot of people who are buying this desferal,because so many of them can't afford packed desferal,i have seen parents with 4 thal kids,just try to figure out how would they even affore desferal let alone Asunra.

The cost of Asunra is another matter,but i assume that my daughter is very young and we won't have to use much larger doses,so we'll manage it.My worst fear is that what would happen if my daughter won't be able to tolerate Asunra,then we'll be bound to use desferal.Lets hope for best.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Canadian_Family on November 12, 2008, 11:31:43 PM
Hi Zaini,

I feel for parents with four thal major children.

I read your posts, you can start Asunra anytime at any level of ferritin. However, please make sure Zainab drinks lots and lots of water with it (please see my post in iron chelation board).

I do hops she tolerate Asunra well.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 13, 2008, 03:31:00 AM
Thanks Canadian Family,

I have some concerns i am worried about,she spends almost half her day in school,what if any reaction happens there and she isn't unable to understand what's going on,and who'll remind her to drink lots of water there  ???.I just keep praying that everything will turn out fine.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 14, 2008, 06:42:10 PM
Guys,

Not a very good news,my daughter will be tranfused tomorrow after 4 weeks ,and her pre transfusion hb came back 9.1.While last time it was 9.9 after 4 weeks.i know i said last time that we should wait for another transfusion before reaching any conclusion with carao,but i feel like i was expecting more then i should.i'll keep giving her carao,we have ordered 4 more bottles,so i am gonna finish them as they don't have any side effects,but let's see if it can make any difference again.Right now we'll have to go back to three weeks routine,with which my concerns were that if er transfusion requirement kept increasing l,ike that,soon she'll be on two week routine and i don't like the sound of it.Lets hope and pray for best.

A special thanks to Lloyd who gave us the chance to try this new product,it was very kind of you :) .

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 15, 2008, 12:33:56 AM
Dear Zaini,

I don't think that Zainab's transfusion requirement will be every two weeks, 9.1 is not too bad for 4 weeks.  Sometimes there is an element of error in blood tests.  A few weeks ago, when they were trying to lower little A's hg for a special test - after 6 weeks his first hg came back as 85 and two days later it came back as 90.  There is an element of error, so don't worry I am sure it will be fine:)  Keep doing the great job that you are doing, I honestly don't think that there is too much hemolysis going on or else her hg would be lower.  I hope that her hg is higher next month:)   :hugfriend :hugfriend to you and your lovely children:)

Love,
Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on November 15, 2008, 11:04:21 AM
I too agree Zaini with Sharmin, you have to have an average of the pre transfusion cause sometimes there are many variables that affect the result of the tests

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on November 15, 2008, 06:54:16 PM
Thanks Sharmin and Manal, :hugfriend

I am not discontinuing carao,i still hope that it might work for my daughter,it's just that i don't want her pre transfusion to be lower then 9.5,doctor has given us three weeks appointment this time.let's see if there is any difference in her levels next time.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: opkaram on November 20, 2008, 12:25:22 PM
Hi-

I was away for sometime and couldn't post. Here is the update on the Carao Use and results for my Daughter

1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao – Yes
2. Date when carao is begun – 9th Sep 2008 ( we had to stop after 2 weeks as she developed some kind of Nausea with Carao, we are planning to start again this month)
3. Dose given – 2 Teaspoon per day ( we tried with Milk, Honey etc but didnt work and she vomitted often)
4. Age and diagnosis of patient – 4 years(Thal Major)
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) – Between 8.5 and 10
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao. Of course, the date of the test(s) must be included – 8.9 (8th Oct 2008)
7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - Hydrauxyurea
8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient – Nothing very significant

I think above result are not relevent as she was not on Carao for long, I will publis once we start again.

Regards -
Om
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on November 21, 2008, 04:20:30 PM
Thank you for the report Opkaram, I hope that carao proves to be helpful for your daughter and that she overcomes the nausea.

Best,

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on December 15, 2008, 04:27:44 PM
Hi, this is Lloyd, who sponsored the carao trial for thalassemia.

Opkaram, I'm afraid results for only 2 weeks use are not meaningful. 

Zaini, thanks for the detailed posts on results.  Many thanks also to Manal.  And thanks to Narendra, who I think is the only other participant who sent feedback.  I think Sharmin, who started months after the main group, will also post results.

Unfortunately, too few participants sent feedback to make any of the results useful.  I am very discouraged by the lack of cooperation of most of the 11 participants.

Although we do not have enough results to base any conclusions on, I will post my opinion.  I think carao will be be found to give only slight, if any, improvement in hemoglobin for thalasemmia major.  For thalasemmia intermedia, I think results will vary considerably, ranging from mild to moderate improvement.  For thalassemia minor, I still expect results to vary from moderate to dramatic.

We already know that carao fruit is effective for most all "iron deficiency" and "blood loss" anemia.  In the area of genetically-related anemia, my interest is now focused more on sickle cell anemia than on thalassemia.  This is because we have seen consistent, dramatic results for sickle cell disease (with 4 years of continuous clinical use in Nigeria).

PS For an example of what motivates my interest in carao for sickle cell, here is a letter I just received from a woman in Nigeria (16 Dec 2008):
Quote
Hi Lloyd,

My son is doing very well, i have no need to visit the hospital since after starting again on carao. His blood level is ok, there is less infection  and crisis.

Thanks very much, if you can still help me get in contact with the woman whom i can use her credit card to order for more because i need to have carao always with me. 

Best regards

Uche

(I have been in contact with Uche since last year.  She has agreed to answer any questions by email. More information: http://anemiaanswer.com/cgi-bin/lgssearch.cgi?query=uche)

The demand for carao has grown to the point that we are barely able to keep up.  My hope is to promote planting of carao trees, and local production of carao extract, in suitable places in the tropics, the primary goal being use for sickle cell disease.  There is already a non-profit project underway in India, with a clinic being built, and carao trees being planted.  Interested parties can write to the project chief, the social worker Rudradevananda (rudradevananda at gmail.com).  Those who are able, please consider sending your donations to Rudradevananda.  His email address (and Paypal account ID) is rudradevananda at gmail.com (spam prevention: replace 'at' with '@' and remove spaces).
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on December 16, 2008, 04:41:22 AM
Dear Lloyd,

I will have some results by Monday.  Soon after starting Carao my son had the noravirus so there was some interruption in taking carao other than that he has been taking it. 

1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao  -  October 23, 2008
2. Date when carao is begun - October 23, 2008
3. Dose given - 4 tsp with warm milk
4. Age and diagnosis of patient - 10 years, thalassemia major
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) - pretransfusion hg 90 - 100
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao.
    Blood test results from November 24th
    Hemoglobin   101      110 – 157 g/L
    Hematocrit    0.28      0.34 – 0.46 L/L
    RBC      3.2               3.8 – 5.6 10E12/L
    MCV      87                75 – 91 fL
    MCHC      360
    RDW      16.7             11 – 16 %
    Platelet Count   355     
    WBC      5.9
    Neutrophils   2.8
    Lymphocytes   2.1
    Monocytes   0.5
    Eosinophils   0.0
7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - began B complex (50mg) October   
    25th.     
8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient - increased energy     
    level and positive mood change. 

My son has gone through some treatment this year that may also influence his results, however I will continue to post my observations and his lab results. 

Sharmin

Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: maha on December 16, 2008, 05:03:36 AM
Hi Lloyd
Sorry for the delay. I had no access to the net for the past three months. I am back now but probably lost too. I did post yesterday but that was probably not the relevant thread.
My son has been on carao for more than a year now. There has been no positive change on his hb. The last two months I was able to give him only half the daily dose as he had so many other meds and was forever throwing tantrums. Now I am back to giving him 2 tsp.
thankyou
maha
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on December 17, 2008, 06:31:46 PM
Lloyd,

My son had a blood test this morning.  His hg after 3 weeks is 91, a little lower than we had hoped to see it and we are hoping to see it improve for next time. He will be transfused tomorrow.   I will get the details of his blood test once I have them.

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on January 06, 2009, 05:27:07 PM
1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao  -  October 23, 2008
2. Date when carao is begun - October 23, 2008
3. Dose given - 4 tsp with warm milk
4. Age and diagnosis of patient - 10 years and 4 months, thalassemia major
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) - pretransfusion hg 90 - 100
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao.
    Blood test results from January 5th, 2009
    hemoglobin 98

7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - began B complex (50mg) October   
    25th.     
8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient - his energy has been great during the last 3 weeks - but for a cold he got on Saturday.  He also has some fever and headache. 
   
Sharmin

Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on January 08, 2009, 01:13:46 AM
Sharmin and Zaini,
Thanks very much for the feedback.  It is probably too early to come to conclusions, and too few case histories, but I think the results posted tend to support the theory I posted earlier: benefits for thal major from carao will be primarily improved energy level, with little or no improvement in blood values.

Based on results posted on this forum, and many reports I have seen of greatly improved energy levels for sickle cell patients and others long before blood values improve, I think carao may improve the body's transport of oxygen, allowing the body to make better use of its limited blood.

I am hopeful that thal minors and intermediates will see good improvements in blood values from carao.  Maybe someday we will have a real scientific study.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on February 01, 2009, 04:51:41 AM
1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao  -  October 23, 2008
2. Date when carao is begun - October 23, 2008
3. Dose given - 4 tsp with warm milk
4. Age and diagnosis of patient - 10 years and 4 months, thalassemia major
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) - pretransfusion hg 90 - 100
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao.
    Blood test results from January 31st, 2009
    3 1/2 weeks since last tx - hemoglobin today 69

7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - began B complex (50mg) October   
    25th.     
8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient - his energy has been great during the last 3 weeks - he came down with fever chest/nasal congestion on Thursday and became pale today.  We think that his low hg may have resulted from the cold. 

Will update after next blood test.
   
Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on February 03, 2009, 12:39:03 AM
Lloyd,

We are now on the third bottle of Carao. 

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on February 03, 2009, 03:16:30 AM
We are on the seventh bottle.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on February 03, 2009, 03:19:56 AM
Way to go Little Z  :thumbsup

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on February 03, 2009, 12:46:55 PM
Thanks Sharmin  :hugfriend.

I don't know if carao has effected Little Z's hb levels,she has returned to 4 weeks interval between transfusions,but there are so many factors,now when i go to hospital ,i make sure that transfusion rate is slow,rather the 1 and a half or 2 bags per hour.

One thing is for sure,carao has not shown any negative impact.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on February 04, 2009, 12:54:42 AM
Hi Zaini,

The more that I learn - the more I think that the benefits of products like carao may be difficult to measure in terms of hg levels or ferritin levels.  I think that these products increase the efficiency of the red blood cells and their oxygen carrying capacity.  I think that they have an antioxidant effect by binding free radicals (including free iron) in the body - and probably positively affect the cardiovascular system by increasing circulation.  These affects in the long term protect patients from the affects of thalassemia. 

I hope that most thal patients are on a variety of these type of supplements.  Carao is a very good one - although it stinks  :vomit.  I am glad that the kids are drinking it up though :)

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on February 04, 2009, 11:23:09 PM
I totally agree Sharmin, i have learned in Singapore that there are certain things when taken will not directly affect the HB but not taking them will cause serious damage. The first example of such things are antioxidants. I too believe that carao is doing something

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on February 09, 2009, 02:11:57 AM
Hello Lloyd

I have updated you with the January results in the link below
http://www.thalassemiapatientsandfriends.com/index.php?topic=1259.msg22365;highlight=carao#msg22365

Quote
Dear Lloyd and everybody

I am extremely soooooooooo happy,i did a CBC today and for the first time since my son was diagnoised his Hb is 7.2      I know some of you may think this is too low but for me i never saw this reading before

Lloyd,
HB for January 7.2
MCV 53.4
bilirubin (total) 2
Retix count 6.4% ( i really don't understand this at all because when HB increase this count should decrease but with me it goes the opposite.....any explaination)
The only thing i am giving Ahmad beside the carao for the last 3 month was an extenssive course of supplements ( all what he was having deficiency in including zinc, vitamin A, gluthathione.... and others)


Lloyd

As for me, my HB increased from 10.9 to 11.3 and i feel good

Please feel free to ask any thing

manal

As for the February update:

1- My son finished till now 6 and half bottles ( by the way i ordered 7 more bottles through a relative in the states and i received them, so he still have 4 bottles left)

2- Started the carao in June 2008

3- First two bottles i gave 5ml twice a day then starting third bottle the dose is 10ml twice a day

4- my son 6 years and thal intermedia , never transfused

5- Average HB is 6.2 to 6.5 ( his normal without anything other than the supplements)

6- This month , February his Hb is 6.1

7- No treatment given except minerals and multivitamin, L-carnitine and folic acid


I will update you with the following CBC on March


As for my update on the carao:

You will be happy to know that my HB today is........ 12 in such a short time

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on February 09, 2009, 02:33:48 AM
Manal,

I am glad to hear that your hg has increased!  I hope that Ahmad's hg will increase again too.  I also know that the supplements are helping his hg be more efficient. 

Sharmin
Title: Carao Update - February 25th.
Post by: Sharmin on February 27, 2009, 01:47:25 AM
1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao  -  October 23, 2008
2. Date when carao is begun - October 23, 2008
3. Dose given - 4 tsp with warm milk
4. Age and diagnosis of patient - 10 years and 6 months, thalassemia major
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) - pretransfusion hg 90 - 100
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao.
    Blood test results from Wednesday, February 25th, 2009
    3 weeks since last tx - pre tx hemoglobin Wednesday 100

7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - began B complex (50mg) October/08, began nigella sativa and colostrum Wed, Feb 25th 2009.   

8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient - Good energy, he looks and feels good.  He has had a cold for the last few days - but his hg level is decent. 

We are currently on the 4th and final bottle of Carao in the package.

Will update after next blood test.
   
Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on February 27, 2009, 03:04:30 AM
Hi Sharmin,

Thanks for the update. 

Would your conclusion so far be that carao has given little or no improvement in your son's hemoglobin level? 

You say he has good energy and looks and feels good.  Do you think the carao has definitely contributed to that?

Regards,
Lloyd
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on February 27, 2009, 03:12:14 AM
You are welcome Lloyd,

There are many factors that are affecting his hg right now - such as the antibodies, therefore I cannot give you a conclusive answer about whether or not  carao is affecting his hg levels.  I do however believe that from the time that I started using carao and bcomplex his energy levels and general mood have changed 110%. 

After his ritixumab treatment this summer he was easily tired, irritable, quiet, easily out of breath and he did not look well.  Since I began carao and bcomplex he is a completely different child - happy, energetic, not easily out of breath, and I can barely keep up with him.

These are my observations,
Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on February 27, 2009, 03:17:10 AM
Lloyd,

What i think is carao may not effect hb levels in these kids,but it is helping in keeping them energetic.We are on the 8th bottle now and i'll have to find some one to order more bottles for us.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on March 17, 2009, 11:23:17 PM
1. Confirmation of delivery of the carao  -  October 23, 2008
2. Date when carao is begun - October 23, 2008
3. Dose given - 4 tsp with warm milk
4. Age and diagnosis of patient - 10 years and 6 months, thalassemia major
5. Average hb before carao was begun (the last several blood test results, if available) - pretransfusion hg 90 - 100
6. Results of all hb tests done during or soon after the period of use of carao.
    Blood test results from Tuesday March 17th, 2009
    3rd week since last tx - pre tx hemoglobin Wednesday 99

7. Whether or not any other treatments were started during the period that carao was given - began B complex (50mg) October/08, began nigella sativa and colostrum Wed, Feb 25th 2009.   

8. Any extra observations, such as observations on energy level and effects on the overall health of the patient - Good energy, he looks and feels good.  He has played a lot of hockey during these last few weeks.   

We have almost finished 4th and final bottle of Carao.  Lloyd thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to participate in this study and sending us the product. 

Will update again after next blood test.
   
Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on March 18, 2009, 03:16:23 AM
Sharmin wrote:
Quote
There are many factors that are affecting his hg right now - such as the antibodies, therefore I cannot give you a conclusive answer about whether or not  carao is affecting his hg levels.  I do however believe that from the time that I started using carao and bcomplex his energy levels and general mood have changed 110%. 

After his ritixumab treatment this summer he was easily tired, irritable, quiet, easily out of breath and he did not look well.  Since I began carao and bcomplex he is a completely different child - happy, energetic, not easily out of breath, and I can barely keep up with him.

This sounds great, and I think carao is most responsible for most of this benefit.  I hope this experience (along with many others) inspires medical attention, including a formal study.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on March 18, 2009, 08:46:11 AM
Liitle Z is finishing her 8th bottle of carao,My father has asked his friend to bring 12 more bottles of carao,an year's stock,and Little Z was like " OMG !! why would nana do that to me " ?  :laugh :laugh :laugh :laugh.After so many bottles she still can't take the smell :).

On serious note,i think that carao is benefiting our children,we saw a week's difference in her transfusion intervals,she was regularly going on three weeks,and her pre transfusion hb was between 9 and 9.5,now she goes at four weeks and her hb is between 9.5 and 10.This month after transfusion she had 104 degree fever and a very severe cough,i thought we'll have to go for transfusion on three weeks this time,but her hb at 3 weeks post transfusion was 11.1,now lets see what it will be after 4 weeks.

Thanks Andy for guiding us towards carao and thanks Lloyd for letting us try it.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on March 18, 2009, 02:54:13 PM
Quote
" OMG !! why would nana do that to me " ?     
   :rotfl

Little A is the same way - when I bring him his carao he puts his hand on his head and saying "Oh god why why why.., why is this happening to me."  He is such a cartoon.

Good thing I can ignore him and make him drink it anyway :)  I think it is really helping too.


Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on March 18, 2009, 11:41:13 PM
Sharmin

This is exactly what is happening with my son :rotfl :rotfl and he even gives it names.  He keeps telling me who told you about it, but i am happy that at the end they take it  :rotfl :rotflI love their sense of responsibility


manal
Title: carao for thal minor
Post by: Lloyd Standish on March 21, 2009, 05:10:12 AM
Quote
You will be happy to know that my HB today is........ 12 in such a short time

manal
I'm real happy for you, Manal!  You're thal minor, right? What was the total time you used carao?

All the reports I have received from thal minors have shown dramatic increases in hemoglobin.  I'd really like to know if there are cases of thal minor that do NOT show improvement in HGB.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on March 21, 2009, 01:56:18 PM
Thanks Lloyd so much  :hugfriend for everything and for your generous offer

I started the Carao on the 28th of October 2008 with the below data

Quote
2. Date when carao is begun - October 28, 2008
3. Dose given - 2 table spoons, my spoon is 10 ml
4. Age and diagnosis of patient - 35, thalassemia minor
5. Average hb before carao was begun on October 4: - HB is 10.9 - MCV 62 - WBCs count 3.200 - platlets 365,000
6. Whether or not any other treatmen  were started during the period that carao was given - : just a mutli vitamin centrum silver but not on regular basis sometimes i take apeppetite supression medication cause i am working on decreasing my weight



On the february 7th, my HB was exactly 12 but what is more important to me is that when i was on Carao, the feeling of fatigue that i have each morning when i wake up is not there and this is the most thing i was happy about

As for my son he is on his nineth bottle and i do feel that it gives him energy and i do think too that it helps in reducing the rate of hemolysis when he gets sick. Before using carao, when he get fever, his Hb decrease with a certain rate, after the carao, it is not the same rate.

Did any body has the same observation???


Please Lloyd, feel free to ask whatever you want

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on March 21, 2009, 05:18:12 PM
Manal,

I am thinking of giving it a shot myself.  I will be ordering more carao for lil A, I will order some for myself as well.  I would like to get my hg up as well.  Zaini, are you in  :wink ? 

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on March 21, 2009, 09:08:05 PM
Huh  :huh Why are you punishing me ?  :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

Anyways i am not sure,although i sure can use some energy,since last few days i am feeling really tired,more then usual,and i have noticed that my feet swell very easily,i had a severe pain in my neck and left shoulder and arm,i went to doctor today and she said there is a big "tired" written on your face and you should be getting some rest ,she saiid you are looking really anemic,and let me tell you i am feeling really anemic now a days,i don't know what is the reason  :dunno.day before yesterday i was so dizzy and my head was spinning so muck that it was really hard to get up from bed,but with two kids you can't really stay in bed :(,i am thinking of getting my hb checked.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Sharmin on March 21, 2009, 10:27:48 PM
Zaini,

Please take care of yourself my dear.  Make sure that you are eating regularly and taking your supplements.  Have your B12, vitamin D checked as well.  I think that you should definitely start taking carao - then we can vent to each other how awful it smells  :medicine

Make sure that you are well hydrated, dehydration causes fatigue too.  Make sure that you do not get run down, that can bring your defenses and immunity down.

Take care my friend  :hugfriend :hugfriend

Sharmin
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Manal on March 21, 2009, 10:45:16 PM
Sharmin and Zaini , good luck girls with the carao, i am sure it will help you a lot.

Zaini, please do take your supplements i am sure that they will help a lot :hugfriend

manal
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Zaini on March 22, 2009, 07:48:49 AM
Thanks Sharmin and Manal,

I do take supplements but i am not that regular with them,i'll try to be,thanks for your concern dear  :hugfriend.

Zaini.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: kitkat on June 16, 2011, 04:23:18 AM
I know this is a bit late (like 2 1/2 years), but I have a question for Andy about the wheatgrass tablets he linked to here: http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=4993.

I want to know, how big are the pills? I want to buy this but I can't swallow large pills.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: desperate on June 16, 2011, 06:39:37 AM
Hello,

 I recently joined the thalpal site. I am interested in the results of the study. My son is thal intermedia and an adult. Would wheatgrass tablets and carao help him? I live in Germany where and how can I order these supplements?
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Lloyd Standish on June 16, 2011, 03:14:25 PM
Hello "desperate",
I can't suggest a source for wheatgrass tablets, but I can give you my company's URL for ordering the carao fruit: https://www.tropicalhealthfooods.com/order.shtml.  You can also do a web search for the word "carao."  Information on carao fruit for thalassemia is on my informational site at http://www.hemobuilder.com/taxonomy/term/5 (http://www.hemobuilder.com/taxonomy/term/5)
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on June 17, 2011, 01:49:16 AM
Hi Kitkat,

Wheatgrass tablets come in varying sizes, but are usually medium to large tabs. An alternative is the wheatgrass supsershots liquid. It's a little pricier than wheatgrass tabs but easy to take. http://www.drwheatgrass.com/
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: Andy Battaglia on June 17, 2011, 01:54:45 AM
Desperate,

It's hard to say when an individual will benefit from hemoglobin inducing natural products. If a hemoglobin electrophoresis shows measurable amounts of HbF (fetal hemoglobin) it is more likely that there will be a benefit. The electrophoresis would also tell me something important concerning the possibility of using the drug, hydroxyurea to help raise the Hb level. It would be very helpful if you can get these numbers. The results are normally expressed in percentages of HbA, HbA2 and HbF. Panos has started on this drug and has seen a remarkable rise in HbF. This is the key to using hydroxyurea, so it is very important to see if this may be a possibility for your son.
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: desperate on June 17, 2011, 05:48:01 AM
Andy,

my son does not want to use Hydroxyurea (Litaril). He was prescribed the drug 2 years ago and stopped using it. He is in the process of going into a regime of regular transfusions from now on. Would supplements still help?

I will try to get the numbers. What other numbers should be watched?

It appears to me that we have been very ignorant of my son s condition in the past (as long as it worked out with little side effects). People here now so much about about vitamin levels, Hb levels etc.  I feel so guilty to be so ignorant.

Desperate
Title: Re: The Carao Trial - How effective is it & who benefits most etc.
Post by: kitkat on June 20, 2011, 01:53:37 PM
Hi Kitkat,

Wheatgrass tablets come in varying sizes, but are usually medium to large tabs. An alternative is the wheatgrass supsershots liquid. It's a little pricier than wheatgrass tabs but easy to take. http://www.drwheatgrass.com/

Thanks Andy! I will have to try that. I probably won't be able to swallow the wheatgrass pills, so the supershots might be better.