Thalassemia Patients and Friends
Discussion Forums => General Chatter => Topic started by: Lena on December 30, 2008, 06:50:21 PM
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How do you, people, feel about Gaza strip massacre? and do you have any knowledge whether there are down there any Palestinian thals suffering?
Of course one can think that there are so many Palestinian non-thals who suffer due to air raids in Gaza...still...The situation in hospitals is tragic they say...no blood,no drugs,wounded spread on the floor, so much hardship and bad luck for the Palestinians...unbelievable!!!
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Of course, in the US media, this is played out the opposite of what it really is. What this is, is attempted genocide and the world is watching and doing nothing. Even before this onslaught, conditions in Gaza were extremely harsh as Israel was basically trying to suffocate the area with a blockade. This is a subject where I am in disagreement with almost all of my fellow countrymen and I best bite my tongue before obvious comparisons to other genocidal tyrants come flowing. I do find the situation quite ironic. Why do people who were victims of another maniac now relish the same role?
I have attempted to send needles to Palestine before but they have to travel through Israel, so I don't know if they ever made it to their destination. I also wonder about thals in places like Afghanistan where just staying alive is a major task. We don't live in a world that is kind and unfortunately, far too many people want to keep the world as it is.
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You do not bite your tongue with us,Andy. I tried to put it in a mild way but you gave me the green light to speak truthfully. Yes, this is an attempted genocide and Europe is watching, the Arabs are watching and let Israel proceed to slaughter the Palestinians. And people are wondering why do Palestinians become "terrorists"? well, they are driven to that. They have nothing to lose except their lives, their non-existence, because the life they live is no-life at all. The only weapon they have been left with, is themselves, their bodies and they make themselves human bombs. Of course, it is no good thing for Israelis to live in fear either. Imagine, someone to go to school, shopping, enjoy themselves and been hit with a rocket. That is awful, too. But if two sides do not withdraw, do not think, violence will not cease. Of course, the USA stays once more behind and Obama-on whom many placed their hopes for better justice-remains silent.
As for Palestinian thals, my opinion is that needles or anything else you might sent will not reach its destination.
I really feel sorry for them!
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I condemn all this dirty politics and all the goverments that are watching even the Palestinian goverment itself which is split from inside and having a civil war between Hammas and Fattah instead of defending themselves against Isreal and the only victim s the civilians and the people.
Isreal is targeting schools, you will never imagine how many children are killed, i don't know if this is shown in your media or not. I will never forget the face of a little girl, no more than 10 months with her left eye bombed and many children if are not killed are just shivering and trembling when talking in the media.
By the way, injured civilians undergo surgeries with no anthetesia cause there is none. Isreal has prevented food and drugs from entering Gaza, so Andy don't send the needles. The people are suffering you will never imagien how the streets are full of slaughtered people to the extent that they are not collected.
Yesterday the Egyptian boarder was opened and the injured people are starting to pass the boarders to go to hospitals and tonight many big trucks full of food and drugs will pass the egyptian boarders to reach Gaza.
The Isreali plan is to divide Palastine into El Dafa and Jordan in one side and Gaza in the other side that is why it is totally isolated with unbelievable killings.
Also many Egyptian soldiers on the boarders have been killed due to this massacre
manal
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Quote from Andy:
"What this is, is attempted genocide and the world is watching and doing nothing."
Exactly my feeling. I have been watching the French news and what you can see there is truly heart-wrenching. So many deaths, some palestinians are fleeing their houses but to go where?
I am trying to imagine what it is like to live in such conditions as the palestinians were and are living, no wonder some of them become terrorists. ( How can you watch your children dying and still stay calm?) Not that I am one to agree with violence ( I hate that) but if I would die anyway, better fight to have a chance to live.
The palestinians are outmatched, how can they fight against the most powerful military of the region.
Where is he UN? This is not a time for the UN to talk but to intervene.
Some genocides have been done undercover (discovered years even decades later) but this one is being perpetrated openly and with the approbation of certain states and organisation. This is truly appalling.
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I cannot understand how there can be such intolerance. Why can't the palestinians and the israelis share the space they have. Why can't they live peacefully next to each other? Why do they need to deny each others' existence and rights? It would have benefitted both to live peacefully side by side. They both have rights to that land. How do other countries manage their multiracial society? It does not always end up in bloodshed.
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I am a North American and I say with great shame that there is not enough awareness of all of this here - we don't ever hear this side of the story. Everything is filtered in order for us to only know one side of the story. We on this website, as a community cannot believe how this can happen - as we fight for life and survival how can we possibly understand this senseless destruction of human life??
Manal, it is so sad to hear that children are targeted. The people here would feel differently if we were allowed to know the truth.
Thank you all for enlightening me. I wish that terrorism would not occur anywhere. I agree with you Andy, the victims of one terrible crime in history are leaving a trail of decades of horrific crimes. How shameful.
Sharmin
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The palestinians are outmatched, how can they fight against the most powerful military of the region.
I think you don't remember what Hizbullah did to Israel forces (most powerful) when they attacked Lebanon.
This is happening for the past 60 years in Kashmir (few of you know where it is), past 7 years in Afghanistan, past 5 years in Iraq and some other places. And guess what, in all these cases, the side under attack is outmatched from the attackers, but still they haven't quit and strong resistance is in place. Kashmir got an entire generation of young people wiped out, still thousands gather to protest. There is no end to it.
we don't ever hear this side of the story. Everything is filtered in order for us to only know one side of the story.
This is the reason Umair and I live in a terrorist state and now considered one of the most dangerous and unstable nuclear state. Because thats how our image is projected to the outside world.
And people are wondering why do Palestinians become "terrorists"? well, they are driven to that. They have nothing to lose except their lives, their non-existence, because the life they live is no-life at all. The only weapon they have been left with, is themselves, their bodies and they make themselves human bombs.
Thats what this world likes to call ISLAMIC EXTREMIST. The truth is anyone belonging to any religion can be turned into a human bomb. All it takes is to create circumstances and use them to promote negative energy in the person and then give direction to that energy. I recently saw a movie "The Mist" which is a typical alien monster type movie but the concept shown in that movie is same as what i explained above.
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I saw a dead body of a four years old Palestinian girl on news today,they were carrying it and crying out for justice,is there any justice left in this world? it made me miserable,i feel guilty i can't do anything about them,about anyone for that matter,when ever there are talks of war between India and Pakistan,i try not to loose my mind,there are like thousands of thals in India and Pakistan both, how would they survive,no one has the right to steal their shot at life,they have the right to live.
I accuse muslim govts for doing nothing,they are there sitting and watching,they can't do anything? They can't do anything to force Israel to stop this insanity? Kids are dying and there must be thals there,and not only thals but kids with other medical conditions too,a surgery with out anesthesia??? can you imagin it? This world is so sick.
Zaini.
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Why can't the palestinians and the israelis share the space they have
Jade, if you revise history, you will find that this land belongs to the Palatinians and Isreral took over the land as a result of the Belfore declaration in 1917 at the time of the World War. This is colonization, you can not live peacefully with your colonizers, according to our beliefs you will have to defend your religion and land endlessly especially that Jeruslam is a sacred land for us. The land will be defended forever to the last day on earth and we will win at the end according to our beliefs, may be not now or in this age but the victory is coming
What aches my heart is the civilians, in old wars usually two armies fight, but now you find that children and civilaians are taken as human shields which i call war with no dignity. Will never in my life forget the child Muhammad al-Durrah whose father was begging on the ground an isreali soldier not to kill them and one of the brilliant photographers recorded what happened many years ago. The 10 years old kid was dying of horror from the soldiers and then the soliders shooted him in the head in his father lap, could you imagine how will his mother feel seeing her child being shot on TV, what threat could this boy do to the soldier
In the link below you will see the horror in his eyes, can you just be in his mother place
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah
As for the word ''terriorist'' we have to dicriminate between two types, there are terrorist who are usually mercoinaries ( sorry for misspelling) and usually take money for their acts and behind their acts is a political background for their actions. Simply they are paid to destruct or cause insecurity in certain countries to give other countries excuse for certain actions to be done.
like what happened in 9/11, these were terrorist acts to give insecurity to the States leading them to attack Iraq to get rid of destructive nuclear weapons which were never ever found and the real reasons behind this were totally different and clear to everyone( many documentary films show how 9/11 was something planned and meant to be done in this way and how more than 1000 emplyee didn't go to world tade center at that day and how many fault things were said in the media, but again the media belongs to a certain lobby)
But there are also other people who the west also call ''terrorist '' that use their bodies as bombs to explode themselves. What the west does not know is that defending our religion and land is a pillar in our religion and you can go all the way for this cause because f you succeed you win your land and f you don't you will be rewarded by paradise so in both cases you win. That what the west does not and will never understand. When you are deprived of weapons to have a fare war you don't have except your body to use as a bomb. No soldier on earth will use his body as a bomb unless he has a belief that is why their trails will never stop cause you can not change a belief. Those people who have nothing in return for what they did are not terrorist, but they are believers.
Anyway i am sorry if i offended anyone but this was just my opinion. Nations are the only side that pay what goverments do from their dirty politics.. it is so dirty. At the end no one would love to live in wars, even the isreali people themselves ( the people not the government) are not in a better place, how can they be when parents don't know if they will have a chance to see their kids in the evening or not
If any of you wants to see the other part of the story that the media hides, send me your email
manal
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Very wisely said Manal,Couldn't have said it better :hugfriend.
Zaini.
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You are right, Manal. The West will never understand your beliefs and that is why we use terms like "terrorists" for people who defend their fate, their lives,their land. And life of Israelis is hard too, not knowing if they wake up the next day.The only thing to blame them for, is that people proceed to settle in the Palestinian territories. I do not know if Israeli people could do something to force their government to stop.They are partly responsible, if you ask me.
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Zaini,
I accuse muslim govts for doing nothing,they are there sitting and watching,they can't do anything? They can't do anything to force Israel to stop this insanity?
I totally agree.
Muslim govts and muslim leaders, all they do is call a conference, talk nonsense and go back home to their life. They are all paid enough to enjoy their good night sleeps in their palaces. Didn't you hear that arab sheikhs gave millions of dollar worth gifts to George Bush and Condolezza Rice. Didn't they knew these two are responsible for thousands of innocent people deaths. God has given infinite wealth and resources to Arabs, and what they are doing with it. Building palm islands, 7 star hotels with revolving floors, gold plated mercedes, super luxury aircrafts ??? If arab world decides one day to stop oil supply to West and close all US bases in Middle East, story can be changed. Forget the Arabs, what our paki leaders are doing, being the only good for nothing nuclear muslim state. We depend so much on US that we cannot take action when someone crosses our border, kills people and goes back.
Only Iran is the country whose leader is a true leader and who has guts to show thumbs down to Bush in front of the whole world.
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Hi buddies :
i agree with tariq,lena,manal and zaini . i just want to add that its the blessing of Almighty ALLAH that we r a nuclear power , otherwise it could be our story as well ... all that's wat happening to Palestine could b happen to us as well ... you people are saying that palestinians are terrorist .. may i ask that if a sepratist movement took place in a muslim country like Indoesia that's called freedom fight and when samething happened in anyother country you all call that terrorist , is it fair ???. ...
once i was reading newspaper and i red a stastic that was showing that 1000 american soldier klled in iraq in past ( i dont remember the exact no of months ) and in the same time 100000 people killed in iraq without any trial without any justice .... samething israel is doing destorying their homes killing their men boys and young children .. then you said we want to stop terrorism , how could it wil stop ... a family in which most of family membersbeen killed wat is the meaning of life of the remaindered family members of that family ... spouse your parents and your children were killed in a military action of any country , wat will b your reaction ?>/ will you forgive that army personals who killed your family without giving any carge sheet any reason ...
All that happening in middle-east is not to only condemn but soo called UNO should have to be active there as well ....
If arab world decides one day to stop oil supply to West and close all US bases in Middle East, story can be changed
@Tariq ,
it happened in 70s when Zulfiqar ali bhutto was the president of pakistan , its hapeend somehting like this :
once Butto was on the visit of KSA (Kingdom of Saudi ARabia ) he said to king of that time that i want to visit your oil refineries , king said ok , next day they vent to visit oil refineries during the visit bhutto said that i want to have a Cigar ( which was bhutto's favr8 one ) king its not possible here oil may cathc fire to that , bhutto said dont you stop this plant for me .. king said ok stop plant for him ... just within the minutes king secretary came and said that calls are coming frm america and all over the world , they r asking abt the why these refineries been stopped ... then bhutto said oil is your weapon see whole world is running on your oil resources stop the supply and see you may rule the world ...
This is the reason Umair and I live in a terrorist state and now considered one of the most dangerous and unstable nuclear state. Because thats how our image is projected to the outside world.
Tariq bro our state isn't a terrorist state , well we are not the most dangerous and unstable nuclear state .
Sorry for my english :D ... have no ore words to say , may god bless the world with peace and prosperity ....
Umair
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I have just seen pictures of the Gazza massacre. I am deeply disturbed by the pictures, I cannot imagine the people who live it. All I can say is what a shame - while we struggle to gain a few mmol of hg - valuable blood is shed like it doesn't mean anything. I pray that this will all stop someday soon.
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Tariq has hit the nail on the head. If the powers in the Arab world would stand up to the west instead of showering them with gifts, perhaps change could be found. What Tariq mentions about man-made islands and 7 star hotels is what is just so exasperating even when it comes to issues like funding research to cure thalassemia. At the Dubai conference, I spoke with Dr Michael Sadelain, about what is the main obstacle to running gene therapy trials...money. Dr Sadelain talked about how at a conference that attracted hundreds of thal patients from Saudi Arabia, that he wanted to make an appeal to the Saudi Arabians for $3 million to help finance the trials. While one sheik bought a jet for over $300 million, no money has come to fund this research, even though so many of their fellow countrymen suffer from thal. I have also used connections through diplomatic channels to ask money from the Kuwaiti princes, one of whom is a good friend of the ambassador I know. This ambassador has a thal daughter. Again, nothing came from the efforts. These greedy leaders enjoy things as they are and have no interest in helping their own people, let alone helping others in the Muslim world.
We can point fingers all day at the western nations that took away the land from the Palestinians and put Israel in their midst as a way of having a foothold in the Mideast, so we will always have an excuse to take the oil. It has been in the interest of the western powers to keep the Mideast unstable so that the governments there can be easily manipulated and controlled. In the 1970's people like Cheney and Wolfowitz designed the Plan for a New American Century (PNAC) which states exactly what I just said. Keeping the Mideast in a perpetual state of unrest is the plan and so far it has worked as they hoped, as the US was able to attack Iraq and kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis with impunity. Until the leaders of these Mideastern countries stand up and unite to change this state of affairs, this is how it will stay. No US president will ever stand against Israel as this would be political suicide. The only solution can come from the countries in the Mideast because the US and Israel will never leave the area in peace. Israel will continue to steal Arab lands and label as terrorists anyone who opposes their actions.
Nothing will change until countries like Saudi Arabia replace their corrupt kings and decide to lead rather than bow to the wishes of their US protectors. How many countries are like Saudi Arabia and have tens of thousands of US troops stationed there, solely to keep themselves in power?
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Tariq
Muslim govts and muslim leaders, all they do is call a conference, talk nonsense and go back home to their life. They are all paid enough to enjoy their good night sleeps in their palaces
I totally agree about this 100%
Only Iran is the country whose leader is a true leader and who has guts to show thumbs down to Bush in front of the whole world.
Totally disagree, when it came to practice where is their role now??? They have been accusing everybody of betrayl. what did they do now. It is all about INTERESTS
Sharmin
An American man runs this website. A man who does not have thal, nor does any member in his family. He travels all over the world and for years has answered all of our queries night and day. His mission is to learn more and more in order to help us fight this disease - he worries about our iron levels and transfusion requirements. It is an American girl whose picture appears on the top of this page a girl who lost her life but left behind this site to help all of us - to unite us so that we can share our feelings and conquer this disease. Sajid was a Pakistani muslim who gave up a chance at life so that a little boy in India could live.
I am sure Andy knows that we are mainly talking about goverments, not people and we all do respect all nationalities, what we all condemn is the politics not the people, the people of the US, Pakistain , India, Isreal, Palastien,... the common peole are only hoping to live in peace no more and just have the simple life. We are criticizing the politics in general and this include all the world including our own leaders, i hope we all have the same understanding.
Finally i am really happy on how we all disscuss a sensitive issues, though we all come from different culters, but we have great respect to each other. Whether we agree or disgree what i like is the tone of respect wehave for each other
One important conclusion:[/u]
After reading all about this thread, don't you think that thalassemia is really something soooo minor and easy to deal with and there are other hardships in life that God had saved us from, So we have to thank him, i guess :wink
Hope the coming year will bring more peace
manal
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Andy, you are totally right , this is the solution, i totally agree to each and every word. You understand the situation so right. None of the leaders work for the people.
Come on Andy, i am really so impressed an expert in thalassemia and Polticis, hats off my friend
manal
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it's terrible, really, really terrible.
I also think about the fact what Andy said - the ironic thing.
I haven't read all your message though.
For me it feels like Lebanon 06. I got a friend in Lebanon and I was so scared all the time.
They are just all liars.
I know about the EU, but WHY don't you hear ANYTHING of Obama? ???
I hope that the world will someday know peace.
Dore
p.s. I hope I didn't said anything against the rules of this forum...?
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Manal,
I completely agree with you:) I also believe that the leaders fail us and cause people to hate one another and that is why I was pointing out what great things we can do regardless of where we come from. Western governments have manipulated the entire world to get what they want - they use other countries as their pawns. The corrupt leaders and governments brew hatred in people which is heartbreaking and devastating - but that is their whole plan. If everyone were to like each other then and there was stability then their plans would fail. Everything that Andy has written is the point of view my dad has been telling us since we were children, and he has been warning us to not fall into the trap of believing the media around us. It is too bad that it is not stopping and that the effects continue to be so devastating. May there be peace someday.
Sharmin
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Dore, you have only spoken the truth. And Obama will do nothing because every American politician knows that to criticize Israel means political death in the US.
Manal, my educational background and degree is in political science. I learned many years ago that what we are told is seldom the truth. I became so disillusioned with how politics really works that I never continued my education beyond my 4 year degree.
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Tariq
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Muslim govts and muslim leaders, all they do is call a conference, talk nonsense and go back home to their life. They are all paid enough to enjoy their good night sleeps in their palaces
Exactly, the Arab leaders joined and nothing came out of it. On the French T.V., one of them came to discuss and said that a decision will be reached after 48 hours and the french said that in 48 hrs there will be terrestrial attack so what's the use of deciding anything at all if it will be after the attack.
I am sorry to say that but I believe that these leaders are bootlickers when they have so much money and could have used these productively to secure their power. Israel is surrounded by arab countries, if pressurised by all of them, it would have to stop its offensive because it cannot battle on all fronts at the same time. But unfortunately the arab leaders do not want to get involved (only God knows what they are afraid of)
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@Umair
Tariq bro our state isn't a terrorist state , well we are not the most dangerous and unstable nuclear state.
I know buddy but if you have read carefully i said that our image that is projected to whole world has made us look like a terrorist state. The fact is despite all the issues and differences, when difficult times come, we become strong and united, which we all saw in recent tension build up with India. Even the people fighting with Pak Army in northern areas offered a cease fire and even offered to fight with Pak Army in case of Indian attack.
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@ Tariq
hummm .. oh yeah , i made a mistake in reading the posts carefully.
@all others
Sorry if i offend anyone, or if i said anything against the forum , forum members and against the rules of forum ...i didn't mean to offend anyone or to break rules, but in mean time i think that wat-ever i said is nothing wrong .... i m gonna cut some lines of my last post ....
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@Umair
I know buddy but if you have read carefully i said that our image that is projected to whole world has made us look like a terrorist state. The fact is despite all the issues and differences, when difficult times come, we become strong and united, which we all saw in recent tension build up with India. Even the people fighting with Pak Army in northern areas offered a cease fire and even offered to fight with Pak Army in case of Indian attack.
You are totally right Traiq,i wish people who call Pakistan a terrorist state would come to Pakistan and see the state of poverty here,economic conditions have been so hard recently that even the so-called middle class is going down the lane,bombs blow up,people die,and our presidant will do nothing but praise Sarah Palin's beauty ?You remember that couple whose 2 years old daughter died and they didn't even had money to bury her? They had to leave her dead body in the Edhi charity centre? I can never forget the face of the crying father,he was crying like he had lost his mind.It was all over the news, This is all so sick,and why would US do something for us,or any country,if we are not ready to do any thing by ourselves?
Economic conditions are hard all over the world now a days,so i don't think that people in any country would even think about war? But i wish we can say the same about govts.
You must have read about a report which came in news a few months back that an american think tank developed a new world map in which Pakistan was absent,i don't know if any of you has seen the movie "War Inc",it displayed the same idea,it showed years like 2015 or something (i don't exactly remember the year),in which Pakistan was under American troops.
I don't think this madness would end untill and unless our political leaders see the wrongness of their ways,my sympathies are with Palestinians,but i wish i could do more.
Zaini.
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You are totally right Traiq,i wish people who call Pakistan a terrorist state would come to Pakistan and see the state of poverty here,economic conditions have been so hard recently that even the so-called middle class is going down the lane,bombs blow up,people die,and our presidant will do nothing but praise Sarah Palin's beauty ?You remember that couple whose 2 years old daughter died and they didn't even had money to bury her? They had to leave her dead body in the Edhi charity centre? I can never forget the face of the crying father,he was crying like he had lost his mind.It was all over the news, This is all so sick,and why would US do something for us,or any country,if we are not ready to do any thing by ourselves?
Economic conditions are hard all over the world now a days,so i don't think that people in any country would even think about war? But i wish we can say the same about govts.
You must have read about a report which came in news a few months back that an american think tank developed a new world map in which Pakistan was absent,i don't know if any of you has seen the movie "War Inc",it displayed the same idea,it showed years like 2015 or something (i don't exactly remember the year),in which Pakistan was under American troops.
I don't think this madness would end untill and unless our political leaders see the wrongness of their ways,my sympathies are with Palestinians,but i wish i could do more.
Zaini.
Zaini, it's too late for me now to write all the things I want to say. So I will only say this.
Last monday I saw a program called 'Guests in Winter' (wintergasten) on the Dutch tv. This season we got a very good presentator who is a journalist in the Middle East and he's good. He interviewed Jeffrey Sachs from Columbia University (New York) who is an economist. The concept of the program is to interview a guest for 90 minutes (without any breaks). I have heard of him since he was the head speaker of the conference of ALAS (which was created by Shakira Mebarak Ripoll and many other well-known people from South-America. I told my father to watch with me. First he was anti mister Sachs, but he was also touched by him. (Unfortunately, my mother had to work) I wished that everyone watched this program.
A summary of what he said:
All problems are caused by poverty. It's our job to get poverty out of the world. And he really accused governments of not doing that - even the American government. They all giving less than 1% of their income (right word?) to Third World*.
That's the thing what slepped of everybodies memory all the time!
Sachs wrote also a book about this issue. I haven't read it yet. I have so many - besides study - to read that the pile of books is like the mount Everest.
The next time when I post here, I want to talk about a book what discuss the Israel/USA issue. I remember me this book when Andy answered me. I gave it as a present to my father during Sinterklaas 2007 and it's still a lonely book.
* = there's a better word for that too
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Dore,
You pointed the right thing,we have to abolish poverty,but we obviously can't do it by waging wars,so if the big and developed countries can't help third world countries,they should at least try not to create more mayhem in there.
Zaini.
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Giving money will only provide a temporary relief. We need to build proper economical infrastructure in country which needs help. So that foreign investment can be brought, new businesses start which in turn will create more jobs. Also improving law & order situation helps in increasing consumer confidence and will stop people from investing their savings to some other country.
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Here is some info about thals in Gaza. I just heard it coming from a doctor in the Gaza Hospital of Beit Hanoun.He was on Greek news, journalists talked to him on the phone and he spoke Greek as he had studied medicine in Greece.He told that the thals of Gaza do not get blood transfusions at all,as no blood is available.
As expected that might be, at the same time it's terrible to be expressed in words. One cannot avoid put oneself in their places.
Greece has sent humanitarian aid with drugs and 150 blood units.
But are they enough?
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That's really, really terrible :(
Do they really attack hospitals?
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thats how Israel eliminates threats (in this case thals waiting for blood Tx) and ensure safety of their people
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I just heard that Israel started with artillery. There's no doubt that they will enter the Gaza Sripe, I think. I must say that I expected this change of war today.
If I knew I would have travelled to Amsterdam, but today there was a demonstration in Amsterdam against the warfare of Israel. Anf it also against our governement. Our minister of Foreign Affairs told us to be 'reserved'. We (they) are also guilty so long as we don't do anything.
I'm very angry and upset. What will be next?
Andy, you were right. I have heard what Obama said. Change!? I don't think so!
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Bush call Hamas rocket attacks on Israel "terror" however, Israel raining tons of bombs down on Gaza draws no comment and no criticism.
This is how it is portrayed in the US. We are not told of the ongoing suffering in Gaza caused by the Israeli blockade, enforced on the other end by an Egyptian government that has been bought by the US for many years now. Since the death of Nasser in 1970, supposedly from a heart attack caused by hemochromatosis, Egypt has been nothing more than a US lackey, taking billions of dollars in US taxpayer money to stay the impotent nation it has become rather than the Mideast power it should be, leaving no balance to the expansionist goals of Israel. With the border between Gaza and Egypt closed for the most part, the Palestinians have nowhere to hide from the constant attacks from Israel, a country that has taken the saying "an eye for an eye" ( which by the way, was completely rejected by the same Jesus that Christians supposedly worship, even though 90% of Christians do not follow the teachings of Jesus at all in their personal lives. Jesus denounced the eye for an eye belief and said that instead, we should turn the other cheek), to an extreme that somehow regards a 2000 pound bomb as equal to a mortar shell that hit no target. American made planes dropping American made bombs and all supported by billions of US dollars given to Israel annually. And the world sits and watches because there is not a single leader on earth who does not understand that any attack against Israel will be met with a force that has the full backing of the most powerful military machine ever constructed...the US military. And then Americans sit back and think Muslims hate us for our freedom! Bush has pushed this absolute ignorance and yes, the vast majority of Americans are actually STUPID enough to buy into it. It is the most nonsensical notion ever, yet Americans lap it up without a thought of how ludicrous the idea is. The roots of terrorism are poverty and injustice and violence perpetrated against the masses of the world.
Is there any reason to hope this will change with a change in leadership in the US? None whatsoever. Obama is a tool when it comes to foreign policy and his appointment of Hillary as Secretary of State, assures that the status quo will not change. Obama will lead the US into an endless war in Afghanistan, ignoring the fact that no one has ever won a war there, in a futile attempt to find Bin Laden, who has long fled the area. Israel will continue to expand and be the aggressor as the western media portrays them as innocent victims. In my opinion, Israel is no different than Nazi Germany. Genocide is genocide no matter how you try to disguise it.
Our only hope is that the mass of humanity evolve enough to be able to do what should be a simple thing...think for themselves. Stop swallowing the propaganda you see in the news. Look at situations objectively and know the facts. Never allow yourself to believe that dropping a 2000 pound bomb on a houseful of children is justified. Never!
Most people in the US would be horrified at what I have written here but until voices speak out against the ongoing campaign of genocide that is the policy of expansionist Israel, and stop excusing everything they do because they have "suffered", nothing will ever change. Regardless of what happened in Germany, it gives no one the right to visit the same horrors on others.
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Its Insane , Its un-human behavior , .. i think silence of world will encourage israel to carry on this .. soo i think that Countries they have a say in united nation assembly should come forward and to pass a resolution to stop this un-humanitarian behavior of israel .. and to warn isreal to not to do this again ... Egypt alone can't do anything alone without moral and military support of big countries like Russia, China and USA .. but internation observers and acters are silent ... why ??... why they are snot doing anything ???... there are many thals and civilians are in trouble , there is many lives are at risk ... as andy said that : israel is behaving like Nazis ... its ver sad to hear that people of palestine in trouble ............
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Genocide is genocide no matter how you try to disguise it.
Dear Andy .
I second your opinions, my sentiment is just the same.
I feel is appauling how ,the people that has the power to intervene is doing nothing or dragging thier feet, in the meanwhile civillians are dying,
"What a shame to humanity"
It was not right then and its not right now" Killing for any reason is wrong",
ISrael is break-in laws.They do so because they have the power behind them "What a shame"
WE are all becoming intellect savages,
Kathy
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Andy, again i do agree to what you said
*Now Gaza has no electricity at all in the whole city
*40% of the killed people and children and women
*Egyptian boarders are opened only to pass injured to go to hospitals and pass food and drugs truck but not all day long. It is said in our media that the isreali & hammas want to pass all the palasteins to Sinai (egypt) and each for a different target, Hammas to get rid of its responsibility towards its people and Isreali to have an excuse to pass in the future to Siani ( by the way this is their utmost dream building an empire from the nile in egypt until Iraq)
* Isreal troops are now in Gaza and generally isreali soldiers can't keep up with direct figthing ( don't know the term, i mean face to face fighting) but usually they do this when they ruin everything
* Dore, in answering your question about attacking hospitals , you can watch el Jezerah channel or el arabiya channel, you will see gaza live, the continous sounds of explosions are horrible and you can not see anything but black clods of smoke every where. They targeted all schools and hospitals on the first two days of the war
May anything happen to seize fire
manal
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Andy,
you couldn't express the situation better.I wish all Americans had your point of view!
Obama will be no different,we know that here in Greece, where there is an anti-american mood anyway. Why? because the US are arrogant,they think they can be the masters of the world. Greece has suffered in the past as a US-supported dictatorship was established here and Greeks really suffered.And we are constantly afraid here for our neighbours the Turks, whom the USA love!.If anything happens we will be at the same situation like Palestinians.
But the American people are responsible for their governments, as all people are.
Bush invaded Iraq and what happened? He was re-elected.That goes for any country,any people who do not think for themselves and stupidly hope that an already proved bad governing will suddenly turn into a good one.
The Arabs are responsible too for what is happening.If they wouldn't adore the USA,they would have done something. Europe is responsible too as it does not stand for itself and follow the US in each and every occasion.
Now the man-to-man battle has started.It makes little difference to the Palestinians.As the Gaza doctor said on our TV news:
"What does it matter? Bombs, hunger,troops...we are going to die anyway!"
Lena.
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soo i think that Countries they have a say in united nation assembly should come forward and to pass a resolution to stop this un-humanitarian behavior of israel
UN and security council is nothing but US tools and they are used whenever US wants to run over a country and want help from other members. I believe there already is a pile of resolutions against Israel and guess who stopped them from being approved, the so-called sheriff of the world.
Just wanted to share an interview of famous British politician George Galloway taken when Israel attacked Lebanon in 2006. I was shocked to hear his thinking is not like others and he sure gave tough time to the lady asking questions. Worth listening: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sSXsHBRxsKI
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Here is some info about thals in Gaza. I just heard it coming from a doctor in the Gaza Hospital of Beit Hanoun.He was on Greek news, journalists talked to him on the phone and he spoke Greek as he had studied medicine in Greece.He told that the thals of Gaza do not get blood transfusions at all,as no blood is available.
As expected that might be, at the same time it's terrible to be expressed in words. One cannot avoid put oneself in their places.
Greece has sent humanitarian aid with drugs and 150 blood units.
But are they enough?
This is HORRIBLE,resolutions won't do anything at time like this,these are the times when Islam calls for Jihad and Muslims are declared terrorist for doing it ??? But how in the name of God,defending yourself is terrorism ?HOW? HOW? who can stop this insanity,Muslim leaders are asleep,US won't say a word against Israel? Who else is gonna do anything,i really have nothing to say anyore.
Zaini.
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One thing I never see mentioned is that Hamas is the democratically elected government of Gaza. So much for Mr Bush's lies about democracy building. Mr Bush is once again exposed as a bald faced liar and war criminal. The US does NOT support democracy. It only supports puppet regimes like the one installed in Iraq. Bush has never once complained about the lack of democracy in countries that are staunch US allies, like Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
The Israelis have now murdered over 500 people in Gaza. The karma they create will only result in future suffering for Israel.
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Nothing to say but this , Israeland and all other countries which are making war anywher in the world they are not only destrorying the peace of this world but the atmosphere as well ... do you ever think that how much oxgen suck's a dazy cutter bomb ,, how many oxgen sucks all other bombs , do u ever think that how much carbon-dioxide produce's a bomb .. and after that bomb the fire and smoke produce's the carbon-dioxide as well . do you ever think that how much ozone layer is damaged and still damagin bcoze of their bomb . do you know that a battle field of today's wars is a big reason of global warming ... dont they know that they are not killing the people only in iraq afghanistan or palestine but they are killing the whole world , they r destroying the whole world slowly slowly. ... do you know that from which area ozone layer is got damaged and where in the world ozone layer has a hole in that ... its near America in Antartica : here is a proof of it :
it is Antarctica its located nearby the South America :
(http://www.theozonehole.com/images/antamjrc.gif)
in this pic blue is presenting the hole in ozone layer and that hole is touching some ares of South America as well : the pic below is take in august 2000 ....
(http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20030728/gallery/ozone_zoom.jpg)
and here a some quotes from websites :
The ozone hole of 2008 is larger than in 2007
and hole is getting bigger every year : here i want to mention that ozone hole touched the south america,FalkLand Islands on the other end it is near to touch Australia, New Zealand and Tasmania on other side Africa & Madagaskar ...
its realy horrible ...
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20030728/ozone.html
Their results are to be published in the Journal of Geophysical Research — Atmospheres.
Ozone is a damaging pollutant near the ground, but in the stratosphere, it shields the Earth from harmful ultraviolet radiation from the sun and cosmic rays from space, all of which can cause skin cancers.
In the 1980s, scientists detected for the first time an ozone hole forming over Antarctica each August, eventually breaking up by December or January. Another hole was discovered over the Arctic — both regions vulnerable to ozone damage.
Scientists eventually showed that chlorine released in the upper atmosphere from chlorofluorocarbons, or CFCs — chemicals used as refrigerants and aerosol propellants — were destroying this ozone layer. The three scientists, Mario Molina, F. Sherwood Rowland, and Paul Crutzen, jointly won the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their finding.
Released into the atmosphere, CFC molecules "percolate" into the upper atmosphere. As they rise, ultraviolet light breaks them up, releasing chlorine, which goes on to break ozone molecules down to its constituent oxygen molecules.
The discovery eventually led to an international ban on CFC-based products, a ban which Newchurch said his findings show is paying off.
"We can say that what we're doing is working, and we should continue the ban (on CFCs)," he said.
But there is still cause for concern, he added.
Ozone is still being lost from the stratosphere. And the amount of chlorine, the chemical that does the damage in that layer of the stratosphere, has not yet peaked, though it has slowed down significantly.
When chlorine levels do peak and then begin to fall, ozone levels should continue to rise, said Newchurch. However, the amount of ozone in the upper stratosphere, where the rate of loss is slowing, is small compared to the total amount of ozone in the stratosphere as a whole.
"We don't see compelling evidence that the destruction of ozone is slowing in the lower stratosphere, where 80 percent of the protective ozone layer exists," said Newchurch.
[bgcolor=#ffff00]In the lower stratosphere, the layer of atmosphere between about 20 and 35 km (12 and 22 miles) up, the threat to the ozone layer comes not just from chlorine but also from greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and methane. [/bgcolor]
Best known for their warming effect on the lower atmosphere, these greenhouse gases have the reverse effect on the stratosphere, said Newchurch. Here, they radiate heat out to space, cooling the lower stratosphere.
This cooling changes wind and air mixing patterns in a way that can increase ozone depletion, especially at high latitudes, although the effect tends to be mitigated in part by the fact that cooling slows the rate at which ozone is degraded into oxygen, so cooling has both good and bad effects on ozone depletion.
Unfortunately, it is proving easier to ban aerosols and refrigerants containing CFCs than to impose meaningful greenhouse gas emission restrictions on an energy-hungry world, he commented.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/antarctic-ozone-hole-massive/2006/12/26/1166895273746.html
A new study shows just how dramatic the ozone loss in the Antarctic has been over the past 20 years compared with the same phenomenon in the Arctic.
The study found "massive" and "widespread" localised ozone depletion in the heart of Antartica's ozone hole region, beginning in the late 1970s, but becoming more pronounced in the 1980s and 1990s.
The US government scientists who conducted the study said that there was an almost complete absence of ozone in certain atmospheric air samples taken after 1980, compared to earlier decades.
In contrast, the ozone losses in the Arctic were sporadic, and even the greatest losses did not begin to approach the regular losses in the northern hemisphere, the researchers said.
"Typically the Arctic loss is dramatically less than the Antarctic loss," said Robert Portmann, an atmospheric scientist with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration in Boulder, Colorado.
[bgcolor=#ffff00]Scientists have been tracking the expanding ozone hole over Antarctica for some 20 years now.
In October, NASA scientists reported that this year's hole is the biggest ever, stretching over nearly 11 million square miles.[/bgcolor]
In Antarctica, local ozone depletion at some altitudes frequently exceeded 90 per cent, and often reached up to 99 per cent during the Antarctic winter in the period after 1980 compared to earlier decades, the researchers said.
In the Arctic, the losses occasionally peaked at 70 per cent, and some losses of 50 per cent were seen in the mid 1990s, when temperatures were particularly low, but the scale and scope of the problem was much less than what was seen in the Northern Hemisphere.
Recent studies have also pointed to large ozone losses in the Southern Hemisphere, but the NOAA researchers said their study showed that these events were rare and did not appear to signal a trend.
"We saw small to moderate ozone losses in the very coldest winters, when the stratospheric conditions are ripe for ozone loss, but they were rarer than we expected," said Portmann.
The study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, was based on more than 40 years' of ozone readings from polar observation stations and balloon-borne measuring mechanisms.
Make Peace , say no to war , war is a destruction and disaster not only for the those who are fightin but the whole world ! ....
i hope i explained wat i wantted to tell you people : and sorry for posting out of Topic "Gaza Massacre".
Best Regards
Take Care
Umair
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Also,think about the billions and billions of dollars the world spends on war and preparing for war and what that money could do for humanity. The human race is pretty messed up.
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Why do i get the feeling that the Palastenian government does not want to solve that issue and face their colonizers? I am not talking about refusing negociations in the 70s but their attitude now in spliting their forces in civil war between them (hammas) and Fattah. They are accusing and killing each other and at the same time asking others to help them. Shouldn't they start to unit first, just a question!!!!!!!!!!!!!
manal
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The easiest way to rule a nation specially muslims, divide and conquer. And that is the main strategy that they make. But they never do it themselves, rather they use traitors from among the nation or deploy there own people in government and use them for the purpose. We have many examples:
In Afghanistan, they strengthen Kurd groups and finance them against taliban government (to start unstability in region and then come and save the day).
In sub-continent partition, they gave some muslim majority areas to India, the result is there are more muslims in India than in Pakistan. Then they made a successful attempt to break east and west pakistan.
In palestine as Manal rightly pointed out, they would never let Hamas and Fatah unite, bcoz when that happens, problem will be solved.
In Pakistan: they are backing up Baloch Liberation Army and so called Pakistani Talibans (who are CIA and RAW agents in disguise.) to create law and order situation,
I am not that good in history otherwise i am sure there would be many examples from the past,
I strongly believe that they are afraid of muslim unity. They are such cowards that they fear from some verses of Quran (Surah Tauba) and thats why some of these verses were being removed from our school curriculum. But what they don't know that Quran is in our hearts, how will they remove that from our memory..
I am sorry but i am so in control of my emotions, i can't stop saying harsh things, sorry for that.
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Also,think about the billions and billions of dollars the world spends on war and preparing for war and what that money could do for humanity. The human race is pretty messed up.
Hi All ,
if you want to talk about waste of money on war , and to talk about the waste of money on defense budget then here is something i found for you people :
for compplete article : http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/47773/
[bgcolor=#f5ff00]The Bush Administration will ask Congress for $100 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan this year -- on top of the $70 billion already allocated -- and $145 billion for 2008. Why ask for the money if you're not planning to use it?[/[/bgcolor]quote]
for complete article : http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/09/26_poor.html
[bgcolor=#ffff00]If the U.S. spent just $18 billion - which is what America spends in three months to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan - the country could wipe out hunger and homelessness completely for ten years, Shaft wrote. If the US took just 25 percent of its annual military budget, which is expected to top $450 billion for fiscal year 2004, the largest by far (Russia is a distant second at $60 billion, according to the non-partisan Center for Defense Information), that would go a long way towards wiping out hunger and homelessness around the world. "Just 10 percent of our military budget spent yearly on America could give every high school graduate a college education for four years," [/bgcolor] Shaft wrote.
"[bgcolor=#ebff00]It seems like it is not a priority to protect our children from starvation and living on the streets[/bgcolor]," Shaft wrote. [bgcolor=#ffff00]"Our education system is crumbling and the school breakfast and lunch programs are being slashed mercilessly... If this crisis continues, we are in danger of actually having worse hunger and homelessness than some third world countries. The military expansion and occupation must stop so that we can salvage our future before it is too late to stop the landslide of poor and starving[/bgcolor]."
These harsh trends of the poor multiplying and getting poorer, while the rich get richer, are exactly what many of us knew would happen under Bush-Cheney. It's happening faster than many predicted.
Did you see Fox's "conversation" between Republican butt-kisser Brit Hume and Bush on Sept. 22? That was about as much a "conversation" as any of Bush's staged press conferences, as Bush continually looked off-camera for the cue cards. I thought I was watching actors playing Bush and Hume in a Saturday Night Live skit
for complete article : http://www.foodfirst.org/progs/global/trade/wsf/peoplesbudget.html
Pain, loss of human dignity, and grief are part of what hunger means. There is, however, another dimension.
I met Jon Pedro who is with the MST in June 2000. MST works with the landless poor here in Brazil to secure idle land so they can grow food for their families and their communities. [bgcolor=#ffff00]I hear from him regularly about the brutal attacks on MST activists and how many of their leaders have been assassinated. Their crime is that they are mobilizing for the human right to feed oneself. Whether it is Brazil or India or Thailand, the fourth dimension of hunger is repression and living in fear[/bgcolor].
If we think of hunger in terms of numbers, the solution also appears to be in numbers. In 1996, the Second World Food Summit action plan declared the intention to reduce the number of malnourished by half by the year 2015. This expectation was a result of governments thinking in terms of numbers! But if we understand hunger as real people and real families coping with the most difficult human emotions, or if we have ever felt these emotions ourselves, we realize that its then that we have felt powerless to protect ourselves and those we love.
Hunger is the ultimate symbol of powerlessness and violation of our basic human rights.
[bgcolor=#ffff00]A true war on terrorism would have launched a war on hunger and poverty. Instead, it has proven to be a war on the poor themselves. As the White House warmed up the war machine, President Bush proclaimed, "Afghanistan is just the beginning." Washington is now considering continuing this war on terrorism in other states that allegedly harbor terrorists such as Somalia and Iraq, while American troops are already in the Philippines. The U.S. government does not seem to care that indiscriminate bombardment of countries whose populations are already brutalized by war, economic sanctions and repressive governments - destroy fragile infrastructure, kill civilians, and escalate the cycle of hunger, poverty and violence.[/bgcolor]
i hope i explained wat i want to say ....
Best REgards
TaKe Care
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Andy
"Messed up is the polite words" :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl
I am laughing so hard, thinking that it took you a while to work that out.
Thanks mate I always have a good laugh reading some of your posting.Maybe it our Age : :biggrin
Kathy
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The word is MASSACRE!
Massacre, the deliberate and intentional killing of a large number of human beings, under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to "the usages established among civilized peoples" (International Humanitarian Law term from the Martens Clause).
I still can't believe that this word still exists these days!
This word shoud be replaced with LOVE, COMPROMISE, UNITY, CARING & so much more.
Lets focus at the substitute words from now on! :biggrin
Pray for the good of human kind! :hugfriend
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Andy,
And we are constantly afraid here for our neighbours the Turks, whom the USA love!.If anything happens we will be at the same situation like Palestinians.
Lena,
Actually you are the first Greek I speak who said that Greece is afraid for Turkey. Why is that? Could you explain the situation a bit more for me?
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I did my homework tomorrow and watched Al Jazeera. Al Arab??? had a too worse signal. I was still in pyjama's so I couldn't going outside to make the dish "snow-free".
They gave inside information of the biggest hospital of Gaza City. Unfortunately I was in the kitchen to prepare Ex. so I only saw the end. I also heard a professor from the American University of Beirut saying the truth, instead of the usa official from Fort ??? at the end of the journal.
Edit: I saw the meeting of the EU as well. I hope they made me feel proud to be an European. They just changed the chairman; France gave the task to Czech Republic. Let me think, Czech took Sweden and France? with them to Egypt. I only heard the speech of the Swedish woman. I think I heard that Sarkozy 'goes for his own intention' to that area.
Dore
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Dore,
Thanks for asking.
-The Turks constantly violate our national air-space with their aircraft. It happens so often. They fly their aircraft in our national territory, above our islands and make Greek aircraft fly to drive them away.
-They long for some Greek islands to be Turkish and they try their best for that, using much of a propaganda in that direction.
-They want the northeastern part of Greece for themselves.
As far as I remember myself, from a little girl, that fear is spread above Greece.We are constantly anxious that some day a war will emerge with the Turks,especially over the Aegean Sea.
Their governments are hostile and very provocative, no matter which party they come from.Our governments on the other hand, have so many times withdrawn not to create tension.
Lately, there is so much rumour about future extracting oil from our Aegean Sea and this causes much more fear and anxiety for us.
I hope logic will prevail and our countries will live in peace for many years to come.
Lena.
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Lena,
I can totally understand your fears,as we have faced the same situation many times,I think i can safely say that people of Pakistan and India are not in favor of war,they have enough on their plates already,but our govts keep threatning,forces on the borders ,and media keeps misguiding.
Zaini.
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Off-topic
Hi,
I got a question for the muslims. I was looking at the daily pictures of bbc world news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7813401.stm) The subcription of photo 4 talks about the month 'Muharram'. Is it true that it is this month 'Muharram'. I read the article at wikipedia and it says that you can't use voilence in this month. Is this it coincidence that we got this war now?
Why does this religious year always change from date? My knowledge about the Islam is nil. I sometimes think that people from the East (and Muslims) know more about Christianity than people from the West (Christians) about Islam. I think we may even say that Muslims do know more about Christianity than not-religious people from the West. (I started to feel confused by meself. It's not my intention to hurt anyone by saying this. I partly talk about myself :shy it's a long story. (As new year resolution I started to teach myself))
I got also a question about Arabic: What means beit? I saw that a few cities has beit in their names, like Beit Hanoun
Thank you for your explanation Lena. I will ask my Greek friend about this. They talk a lot about the situation in Greece, since the death of that young boy. Are there more islands than Cyprus who have this Greece/Turkey frontier issue?
Zaini, my "email-friend" talks a lot about the situation between Pakistan and India (and the situation in India). It makes her feel tired too and hopes that the situation will not escalate.
Dore
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Dore ,
you asked a few questions here are the answer ...
1) I got also a question about Arabic: What means beit? I saw that a few cities has beit in their names, like Beit Hanoun ??..
Answer : Beit is an Arabic word and it mean's " house of " ..
2) I read the article at wikipedia and it says that you can't use voilence in this month. Is this it coincidence that we got this war now?
islam prohibite's to kill innocent people throughout the year, and Yeah, is true ( as i heard ) .. It is one of the four months of the islamic year in which fighting is prohibited. ...
but some people without the wealth of the knowledge of islam they fight and kill's each other .... they r far away to the teachings of islam , that is the main reason of violence,that they people make in this holy month ...
3) Why does this religious year always change from date?
answer : there is almost 10-12 days difference in between islamic and christian calendar ,( islamic calendar is short than christian calendar ... i think christian calender 365 day and according to this islamic has 353 ) .. islamic calendar is based on moon,, w months start's with moon ,, thats why we sight's the moon to start new month ....
i hope i answer the question ... Zaini and Manal Sis , please correct me if i said something wrong ..
Umair
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Hi Dore,
Umair got it right,in the month of Moharram,fighting or waging war is prohibited,but what's going on in Gaza ,i believe is not waging war,but defending them selves on a very small scale.As you can see here,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7812547.stm
You can learn a lot about islam by reading translation of Holy Quran,which is available in english,and i believe it must be available in dutch too.Check this,
http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=eng&nSora=1&nAya=1&t=ger
Muslims might know a little about christanity because we respect Jesus Christ (or Hazrat Essa,as we call Him here) as a very beloved Prophet of Allah (God).
Yes ,according to my knowledge of Arabic,Beit means home or house.
Situation between India and Pakistan is a bit tense always,but we have fought two wars and i don't believe that any side got anything from these wars.
Zaini.
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Dore,
Cyprus is not a Greek island. Its inhabitants have Greek origin, yes, they are Greek-Cypriots but the island of Cyprus is a totally different nation.
I was referring to the Greek islands of the Aegean Sea, the ones that are so favourite touristic destinations for the whole world.I do not know if you have visited them:let's say Myconos, Naxos, Paros, Santorini,Crete and so many others.You will see them if you get a map of Greece. They lie between Greece and Turkey in the Aegean Sea.They are many.many beautiful small islands which are so preferred by so many tourists around the world.I was talking about them, especially the ones that lie near the Turkish coasts.All of them are Greek, but the Turks wish they were theirs.Of course they will never be.
Lena.
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Lena,
That was really dumb of me! :banghead Ofcourse I know Cyprus is not Greek. I know lots of people who have visit Crete or other big islands, but I have never visit Greek by myself. I love geograpic so I will definitely search for the islands you have mention in the atlas.
Thank you Umair and Zaini. So beit Hanoun is the home of Hanoun. Hanoun must have been a rich family of that area?
They use that video during the journal, but he close with the words 'this was :dunno for the Dutch tv'.
There's one Dutch site which publice text of the Bible and Quran side by side (chapter 1 and 1 or themes) so that you can compare them. The site is available in NE and EN www.bijbelenkoran.nl (http://www.bijbelenkoran.nl).
Well, I should buy this in book form, because my eyes are starting to dislike the screen :tired
On topic:
It's more than a shame that they are attacking schools of the UN. I really had tears in my eyes when we were watching the journal. I really have no words for this. And then the Israelers were talking about a third stage ???
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Hi Dore
*As for the picture you saw, it shows some celebrations of Shiaa who are also muslims but a different sector ( can't find the correct translation, but it is like in christinanity there are catholic, orthodox, protestant ...sorry for the spelling) Muslim sunni and Shiaa have almost everything in common except for one or two things, but sunni don't agree at all with the extremist shiaa as they differ in the belief itself and unfortunatly they are more seen in the media) This introduction to tell you that i can not comment on the picture since i am not shiaa
*answering your question about the holy months or sacred months. These months did not start by the begining of islam but they were known by at the time of prophet Ibrahim (Abrahm) and Arabs used to stop fighting during these months. When islam came , it contiued the same way and these months are Zul qada, Zul hegga, Muharam and Ragab. The first month was because it is the month right before pilgrimage and so you don't have to fight but rather prepare for the pilgrimage. The second month is the month of pilgrimage itself and the third month is the one that follows the pilgrimage. The fourth month which is ragab meaning the ''great''. Tribes in the past used to change the months to go with their own benefits as sometimes they want to raid in these months. This was stopped until Quran stated the exact names of these months as i mentioned them earlier. In those months you are not allowed to fight but you can defeat your self if someone fought you (self defense). In those months you are highly rewarded for your good deeds and vice versa.
* As for the site comparing the bible and the quran, i don't think it is a good idea as there is no point of compariosn they are totally different, that is my opinion, though i didn't understand anythin in dutch :rotfl
* As for muslims knowing about christianity, that is because you can not be a true muslim unless you believe in all prophets of God Jesues for christianity and Moses for the Jews, so we got to know the history, that is all
Will be happy to answer any thing that is not clear
manal
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Dore,
According to wikipedia:
According to local legend, Beit Hanoun was the capital of the Philistine King Hanoun who fought the Assyrians in the 8th century BCE.
So it appears that city got its name from the then King Hanoun
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Hallo,
I agree that the site is pretty strange. If you ask me it's made for some stupity (or racist) politicians/inhabitants of my country. I feel very ashamed for them.
Your spelling was ok, but I think we should name the Evangelicals (they are different than other protestants) as well.I live in the "Biblebelt" and the Orthodox and Evang. are pretty huge here.
@ Dutch and English has similar (and meaning) words like: warm and hand. But also the same words with different meaning, which i mess up from time to time.
I think I got the most chance to find a book form in Amsterdam, but i won't visit the city centre before friday 16th.
@ Tariq: I probably read not far enough at wiki :rolleyes
Groetjes, Dore
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Hi Dore ,
pwhen you're going to buy Quran to read please make sure that is true Quran ... bcoze i heard that people and the lobies made several fake Qura' for propgenda purpose like one of those i know as Noble Quran and etc..etc...... soo please make sure that you are buying true one to keep ur mind safe from propogenda abt islam and its peaceful teaching ... if ou want to learn abt it you can contact to any mosque in your area , or in UK there are several mosques, organizations Pakistani's and Indian muslim communities that my help you alot to finding right books of islam especialy Quran Majeed ....
Best Regards
Take Care
Umair
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Looks like everyone on this group is completely agreed about the bestiality of Israel.
Well, I am on the other side. I think Gaza had it coming.
1. Hamas illegally seized power in Gaza from Fatah, through the use of force - they are *not* the democratically elected government. Israel does not want to deal with Hamas, as Hamas' manifesto calls for the destruction of Israel. Surely, you would not want to deal with those who want to wipe you out? Are you not entitled to put a blockade on a set of people who threaten to destroy you? The moot question here is why does Egypt enforce the SAME blockade? Please answer me that.
2. Hamas has been sending rockets into Israel for the past ONE year - recently, they acquired the capability to hit more cities in Israel by smuggling in longer range missles from Iran. So, the threat to Israel went up.
3. Israel has called for Hamas not to attack it for the past one year. They have asked the people of Gaza to restrain Hamas. Do you not think that ONE year of warnings as enough?
Sure, Israel has attacked with overwhelming and disproportionate force - but, blame the Hamas for this action. They invited the attack. Is it any surprise that even the Arab nations are not in full support of Hamas?
I live in Mumbai where cowardly terrorists have killed over 375 people in two attacks between 2006-08. I am completely in agreement with Israel's policy - no one shall attack us continuously and get away with it.
RE: Oil and leverage - I have news for you folks - the Arab nations with oil have ZERO leverage left. I was in Oman in the last week of December on holiday, and in various GCC countries in the previous six months on business. The lifestyle of the locals (not just the sheiks) have to be seen to be believed - the local subsidies all run on oil revenues. There is no other industry, no other economy in the region. Even Dubai is now crashing and burning - their real estate is down 50% from the peak in Aug. So, you do not sell your oil, you do not have any money - you do not have any money, the locals will starve - if the locals starve, you have a revolution.
There is no way, repeat no way, that the GCC will EVER use oil as leverage.
RE: Pakistan - Zaini, I truly feel sorry for your country. Your country had some of the most fertile land of the Indus basin, rich cities, terrific culture, educated people. Your folks wanted a separate nation-state and you got it. However, in 60 years, your politicians, mullahs and army have virtually destroyed your nation. I am sorry to say this but balkanisation of your nation is inevitable - India does not even have to do anything, we will just watch, in pain. The path of hatred towards India that your army and your mullahs chose has brought the most educated muslim nation to this juncture. I truly feel sorry for Pakistan - it could have been a shining symbol of muslim pride, now it is a failed state.
Poirot
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Hi Umair,
I have had religion lessons at my protests highschool, but we learned alone in year 1 about that other religions than Chr. and Jew. After highschool I started to teach myself more about history. Our education level at schools are pretty low. It's not caused by teachers, but our government.
A Dutch writer, Kader Abdollah, has written a book about Prophet Mohammed and rewrite the Quran in Dutch last year. My mother bought it and she did not even read it out. She told me it was very bad written. She is a teacher Dutch, so we don't waste more of our time on that ;) .
Thank you for the tips. Though I will search on my own or contact my Turkish friend. And yes, we have 2 mosques in our city. Last year I was too late for the guided tour, but the food was excellent.
We'll close this subtopic now.
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Poirot, don't you see a difference between Hamas and Palestians? I do.
I know Israel did ask for that, but they never keep themselves on the resolution. They blokkade Gaza Strip. Gaza had never enough electricity and there was a lack of everything.
What would you do in such situation?
You see, you can't blame only one party
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Poirot,
Looks like everyone on this group is completely agreed about the bestiality of Israel.
Well you are a little bit wrong here. We humans are sharing our personal opinions and thoughts here. We are not representing India, Israel, Pakistan here, we are humans. Whenever whereever innocent people are killed, be it anybody's fault,.........its wrong. Thats what we agree on.
If you have read my comments, i myself being a Pakistani have blamed my own countrymen and Arabs also....why? Because i can face the facts and say what i believe is truth.
no one shall attack us continuously and get away with it
I think statement is true for both attacking and attacked sides right?? If yes, then war will continue in a cycle don't you think. It would become a never ending story.
Regarding you being sorry for us Pakis....lets not start it here. Other than Army and mullahs, there live some 160 million human beings here. We know who envy's our fertile land of the Indus basin and planning to block our rivers.
India does not even have to do anything, we will just watch, in pain
A lil piece of advise, while you are busy watching us in pain, ask someone to watch your back, as you know how many separatist movements are there in your country.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/26/AR2006012600372_pf.html
Hamas Sweeps Palestinian Elections, Complicating Peace Efforts in Mideast
By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, January 27, 2006; A01
RAMALLAH, West Bank, Jan. 26 -- The radical Islamic movement Hamas won a large majority in the new Palestinian parliament, according to official election results announced Thursday, trouncing the governing Fatah party in a contest that could dramatically reshape the Palestinians' relations with Israel and the rest of the world.
In Wednesday's voting, Hamas claimed 76 of the 132 parliamentary seats, giving the party at war with Israel the right to form the next cabinet under the Palestinian Authority's president, Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah.
Fatah, which has dominated the legislature since the previous elections a decade ago and the Palestinian cause for far longer, won 43 seats. A collection of nationalist, leftist and independent parties claimed the rest.
The US and Israel refused to deal with Hamas, instead recognizing the minority Fatah as the government of Palestine. Like it or not, Hamas did win a majority in the election.
Israel has had a choke hold over Gaza and this had led to a resumption in rocket attacks on Israel. Israel never held up its part of the ceasefire, keeping borders closed and depriving the area of basic necessities, in a belief that if conditions are bad enough under Hamas, that the people will turn on Hamas. A belief that is strange. It didn't work in Iraq either. Instead it created terrorists where none had existed previously. It doesn't work. It only creates even more hatred. What Israel is doing now is criminal and the callous disregard they have shown for the innocent citizens of Gaza is disgusting and no less heinous than the acts of the recent Mumbai terrorists. Both are utter and random, but the destruction in Gaza is far more extensive, as Israel bombs anything related to government there, with the "collateral damage" destroying mosques and homes and businesses and schools and hospitals without discretion. Acceptance of any of this behavior is acceptance of the idea that humans can ever be anymore than crude beasts.
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Andy,
My mistake on the sequence of Hamas and Fatah fighting in Gaza - I was under the *mistaken* impression that Hamas won their elections after ousting Fatah from Gaza. Actually, they started to oust Fatah physically and militarily from Gaza in May 2006, after winning the elections in Jan 2006.
So, you win the elections and then kill your opposition. Nice democratic party, eh?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4983510.stm
Then, there was the whole issue of Hamas not willing to remove "the destruction of Israel" as one of its core aims - why would any sane party negotiate with some one committed to its destruction? I would put the Israeli and the US embargo in this context. Egypt, Jordan, and even S Arabia now recognise the right of Israel to exist - Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah do not. Why should Israel EVER negotiate with these folks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Did you know that even Jordan has banned Hamas as a terrorist organisation? These matters are not black and white.
Peartree,
If I was dependent on my neighbour for electricity and work, I would not call for the destruction of that neighbour. This is what Hamas has done. If the people of Gaza want to blame anyone for this colossal tragedy in human lives, they have only their own government to blame.
And I am not blaming only one party, but as a neutral observer, I see that over the past ten years Israel has moved a lot in trying to carve up a two-nation state where both the Jews and Palestinians can live in peace. Israel has even used its army to forcefully remove settlers from both Gaza and the West Bank. But, I can see only hostility from Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah in return. When Fatah wants to negotiate a solution, Hamas kills them in a fratricidal civil war.
Tariq,
Dude, whatever.
I know I speak for most Indians, barring a few fundamentalist nutcases who will never set policy in India - we have no desire to take any part of Pakistan into India. Why would we want to depress our GDP and growth?
I really, really wish you guys all the best in dealing with your in-house problems - we genuinely want to see a democratic and stable neighbour. Then, we can just concentrate on eliminating poverty in our country, instead of having to spend 8-10% of our budget on defence.
Everyone,
No offence meant to anyone here and I will not be taking this dialogue any further on my side. I just wanted to present the other side of the picture to everyone.
Cheers
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Rockets have been fired into northern Israel from Lebanon, raising fears the Israeli offensive in Gaza may spread.
Israel's army responded with artillery to a barrage of at least three rockets. No group has claimed responsibility.
@ BBC News
It's like a powder keg now. I am not sure of they ever thought that this could happen.
:(
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So, you win the elections and then kill your opposition. Nice democratic party, eh?
As I said, like it or not, they won.
If Israel would actually ever abide by the terms of a ceasefire, we could see if the other side is willing to change their attitude, but Israel has continued to suffocate Gaza, contrary to the terms of the ceasefire. Jimmie Carter came away from Hamas with the idea that they could be flexible but now we won't know if they were giving Carter a lot of BS or if they would have been willing to accept an Israeli state as they had hinted, as long as Israel stopped the occupation.
I won't say Hamas is not to blame also, but this reaction by Israel is as has been characterized here, a massacre. It won't solve any problem and the destruction visited on Gaza will only come back to haunt Israel. What Israel wants is the same exact thing that all terrorists wish...that their actions create total terror in the public. It is terror of the highest degree and it needs to stop, just as the violence perpetrated on India from Pakistan has to stop. (How much longer before Pakistan even admits that it was Pakistanis who were behind the latest attacks? It gives Pakistan's government little credibility when they fire the national security adviser after he admits that the terrorist caught was from Pakistan! This won't help. Pakistan knows it has a problem and unless they confront it, things will go very badly in the future, as India will not sit silently as attack after attack comes. If Pakistan does nothing to root out the terror training camps and nothing to bring these criminals to justice, India will act and I am sure it will be a disaster for all). We have to reach a point in the history of humanity where violence is no longer used to solve problems.
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It has always been the case in the past that when a certain group is selected and persecuted, they gather more followers and this brings in more fighters for that cause. So I agree totally with Andy:"Israel never held up its part of the ceasefire, keeping borders closed and depriving the area of basic necessities, in a belief that if conditions are bad enough under Hamas, that the people will turn on Hamas. A belief that is strange. It didn't work in Iraq either. Instead it created terrorists where none had existed previously. It doesn't work. It only creates even more hatred."
The argument Israel used for that offensive was to reinforce the Fattah's political power over Hamas and the exact opposite has been obtained. They kill children and they do not want retaliation. Parents watching their children die, though they could not have been in favor of Hamas initially, will most certainly turn into Hamas activists.
The definition of terrorist is as follows:the calculated use of violence against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear. The argument Israel used for that offensive was to reinforce the Fattah's political power over Hamas, therefore it can be said that Israel is also a terrorist state.
It is really sad to see so many children dying and Israel says it is looking for terrorists only, are these children terrorists?
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Hi Poirot,
Then, there was the whole issue of Hamas not willing to remove "the destruction of Israel" as one of its core aims - why would any sane party negotiate with some one committed to its destruction?
I would like to tell you that this is not specificly concerning Isreal, this ''destruction'' will be the target for any colonizers, whether they are isreali, X, Y, or Z. Again in our beliefs we will never stop unless we free the land, same as in Iraq with the States or with any colonizer, so yes it is an aim to get rid of people taking their land.
The moot question here is why does Egypt enforce the SAME blockade? Please answer me that.
Isreal plan is to put Gaza under Egypt's superviosn through the opening of the boarders so that in the future for a reason or another they will put their hands over Sinai (Egypt).
Some people in Egypt agree with opening the boarders and are completly opposing the government and other are not. Although i am opposing the general performance of the government, i don't agree about opening the boarders because this will threat the security of Egypt, imagine that you are sitting in your house with your door open, you have no control on any thing , You are threaten by terreoists, extremists, even isreali troops can have any excuse for passing by. BUT i agree with what is going now which is conditioned opening of boarders
1- To pass injured civilans to go to hospitals to get their treatment
2- On daily basis, many trucks of food and drugs pass the boarders to reach the people there
What will help the people is not opening the boarders but what will help is that the presidents of the Arab world including egypt do anything to preasure isreal to stop fire. Opening the boarder will not save the people, it will only increase the area of Gaza no more
Egypt, Jordan, and even S Arabia now recognise the right of Israel to exist
When isreal colonized part of Egypt (Siani) from 1967 - 1973, we had the same attitude and all our aim was to get our land back and we were able to do that in 1973 war, They are recognized by us after we were able to get our land back. So let them return the land of the palestian to them and i am sure that the palestinan won't mind to recognize them. By the way Poirot recognizing Isreal by Egypt is a piece of paper at the end ( peace treaty) but the egyptians themselves, no way they totally condmn them and is very hard to change this and the isreali know this quiet well
I see that over the past ten years Israel has moved a lot in trying to carve up a two-nation state where both the Jews and Palestinians can live in peace. Israel has even used its army to forcefully remove settlers from both Gaza and the West Bank.
Who said this Isreali has been putting every obstecle to damafe any thing and this was also encourged by the subjective attiudes of the neighbouring countries. As a palasteinian why should i live with my colonizers in peace, just give me one good reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You are dealing with a country that has a big map inside of their knesit claiming the state of Isreal should start from Egypt until Iraq, are those people willing to do any good, i doubt this. This is only a steryotype from the controlled media
When Fatah wants to negotiate a solution, Hamas kills them in a fratricidal civil war.
This is because we all know that Fatah is an agent for the US and Isreal
I am not defending Hamas by the way cause they also have there big mistakes but there are boarder lines in this issues and million of details, the main boarder line is that palasteinan will never stop fight Isreal to regain their land and the corruption of their government and the subjective attitude of the other arab governments will hinder this. Unless we all unit, the situation will worsen
Poirot, you are not offending any one, as this is your own opinion and definetly opinions contradicts but at the end, respect to one anther is the only thing that matters and this is the part i love and we all have toward each other
manal
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Okay, I tried to stay out of this topic, its getting nasty.
Elections in Israel are due in Feb 2009, Mr. Olmert (not a premier candidate this time) sternly being criticised on corruption basis, needs a legacy. Mr. Ehud Barak is the next candidate for premier job, needs something to play on. Get it……
The leaders of India and Pakistan should have their heads examined. Generally, millions of their citizens die of hunger and poverty and they don’t give it a ‘D’. Yes they take on the opportunity to play on the blood of few innocent, pure political manoeuvre.
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Do you sometimes get the idea that it is only the leaders who want constant strife? It seems that very few leaders anywhere have any interest in peace, while the people always suffer.
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Okay, I tried to stay out of this topic, its getting nasty.
Elections in Israel are due in Feb 2009, Mr. Olmert (not a premier candidate this time) sternly being criticised on corruption basis, needs a legacy. Mr. Ehud Barak is the next candidate for premier job, needs something to play on. Get it……
The leaders of India and Pakistan should have their heads examined. Generally, millions of their citizens die of hunger and poverty and they don’t give it a ‘D’. Yes they take on the opportunity to play on the blood of few innocent, pure political manoeuvre.
:yeahthat
Do you sometimes get the idea that it is only the leaders who want constant strife? It seems that very few leaders anywhere have any interest in peace, while the people always suffer.
:agree
No one has to feel sorry for my country,i know we have had corrupt politicians and people who have miss presented our religion,terminology of mullah might be right for them,but the true heirs of Prophet's religion are called "Ulama",and these are the ones whose sacrifices can never be forgotten through out our history.
No one can destroy our nation,be it politicians,army or any outside source,yes you can destroy a country,it's infra structure,but as a nation we are still here,after 60 tough years.
I am not sure that whatever happened in Mumbai was done by Pakistanis,our govt is working on it,but IF they were Pakistanis and it's a big IF (as govts of both countries tend to blame each other whenever any thing happens in any of the country) then Pakistan can not be blamed alone,as we have seen terrorist acts of Raw in Pakistan too.I am not saying that whatever happened in Mumbai was right,just telling the facts.
I hold no enmity towards any country,live and let others live,that should be the policy of every country,I hope one day we'll see a peaceful world working towards more productive causes,i hope misery of my Palestinian brothers will soon end,my prayers are with them.
Zaini.
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If you want to be trully informed for situation in Gaza proceed to the site of "electronic intifada".
This is the formal Palestinian portal, with articles and news about what's happening in Gaza today.
www.electronicintifada.net.
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How much longer before Pakistan even admits that it was Pakistanis who were behind the latest attacks?
Imagine twelve people cross the Naval defence of a regional power of Asia, in a boat :huh. And they find there way to high security area of Mumbai with loads of guns and ammo. Then they have everything settled in hotels and they have stocks of ammo and food for them to spend time there.Can that get more dumb than this? ??? Why the whole world accepts a ridiculous made-up story by India, but when we say we didn't do it, they don't accept.
Maybe you've heard about Marriot Hotel attack in September 2008 in Islamabad. It was confirmed that a day before, US marines shifted some large boxes to hotel's fifth floor and marines were resident on the same floor. When blast happened at hotel entrance, for no obvious reason, fire broke out at 5th floor. And magically no marine was even minor hurt. Will you accept our story? No, super powers need no explanation, they are not answerable right?? its we who have to try so damn hard to explain our side.
It gives Pakistan's government little credibility when they fire the national security adviser after he admits that the terrorist caught was from Pakistan!
And tell me why does US has to interfere in our personal matter and demand restoration of security advisor. I tell you why, that is the whole problem, US has 100% influence on our administration and establishment. From President to Ministers to Secretaries and all the way to Armed Forces heads, all are hired after approval from US. Why, because they are using us as their policy implementers. Not forgetting the famous Rumsfield threat to Musharraf before Afghan strike "Are you with us or against us". These circumstances, and what options do we have?
And when we talk about accepting, first US should accept that they were the founders of Osama bin Laden platoon, and the honour was done from the hands of ISI. Taliban were trained to be used against Russia. After doing enough to Russia, imagine what some mindless goons armed with all sort of techs and trained only to kil will dol, they keep on doing what they are good at. So we can see the situation at Pak-Afghan border areas, and suicide attacks all over Pakistan in past few years.
India will act and I am sure it will be a disaster for all
Believe me it ain't gonna happen. Both countries have missiles pointed towards each other. It will be a matter of minutes before south asia goes flat. It will be foolish. And India has plans to become the region economic giant, they will never ruin that. This pressure building is all part of a election campaign thats all. Thats the same thing Bush did just before elections, couple of drone and ground troops attack in Northern Pakistan areas adjacent to Afghan border which all ended up in civilian deaths (It is said that when cat gets frustrated, it scratches the pole)
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Dear Tariq,
Us North Americans are the first to admit that the US government is opportunistic and the root of most problems here and abroad. We are also the first to say that Bush is a homicidal, ignorant moron who has used every trick and manipulation in the world. It is also true that the US is probably responsible for creating Bin Laden, and Bush was re elected into office the second time due to his scare tactics. As Andy has said before, in a discussion relating to Singapore (withholding information from the public and lack of democracy in Singapore) it is important for all of us (along with acknowledging the good in our countries) to acknowledge the horrible things our countries and government are capable of. I am of Indian decent, born and raised in Canada and living in North America and I have friends all over the world - and I know that there are wonderful things about all of these countries and there are also deep routed troubles and things that need to change about all of them. As long as we keep blaming everyone else and not looking at what is wrong with us nothing will get better.
Just my two cents - I hope for peace,
Sharmin
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Sharmin,
I have many times pointed at my own country in my previous comments. We people agree that pak govt and admin is full of filthy people and enemies from within and outside are all making use of those in govt for their own benefit.
"No justice No Peace" we all know. Whether this justice is required by a single person, a group of people or a whole nation. There is no other way of achieving peace. Hold a referendum or fair elections in Kashmir and their will be peace. Stop strengthening looters and drug leaders in Afghanistan and there will be peace. Withdraw forces from Iraq and apologize in front of whole world for screwing Iraq on a false alarm and there will be peace. Stop colonizing Palestine land and allow food and medicines through and there will be peace.
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Sharmin :hugfriend nothing more to say.
Zaini.
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yeah they really did.
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Isn't it ironic, the government is supposed to be for the people. It is in place to ensure order and justice. At the end of the day the people end up being nothing but pawns and the governments continue committing crime and injustice. The very people that are supposed to be protected are being hurt.
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Isn't it ironic, the government is supposed to be for the people. It is in place to ensure order and justice. At the end of the day the people end up being nothing but pawns and the governments continue committing crime and injustice. The very people that are supposed to be protected are being hurt.
Well This is true. When some persons get the taste of power, they will never let it go, so they manipulate and that's how the people become pawns. The deaths of these people mean nothing to them as long as they get the power. Unfortunately, whether it be kings in the medieval times or governments nowadays, the struggle for power is still the same with the same consequences and the people pay the highest price.
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Israel shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, engulfing the compound and the main warehouse in fire and destroying thousands of pounds of food and humanitarian supplies intended for Palestinian refugees.
There is nothing about the actions of Israel that can be excused. This is just a continuation of their expansion. Lives mean nothing to them, not even the lives of those living in Israel. Their own citizens are pawns as the expansion goes on and the people of Gaza are the current victims. The Arab world should remember the wisdom of this old phrase, "United we stand, Divided we fall" as Israel's strategy of taking down one at a time proceeds.
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"United we stand, Divided we fall"
Exactly. I wonder why people like you and me understand this but not the people to which this really matters
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1030/1209049102_bfba8841c0.jpg?v=0)
The one who kneels to Allah can stand up to anything
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Most of the muslim countries have puppet regimes , or the dictators who are afraid they might loose their thrones if they say anything against Israel,or US,a kuwaiti parliment member very correctly said today that we should transfer offices of Arab League to Venezuela as we are doing nothing,At least they have the courage to break off diplomatic relations with Isarael. This is all disgusting,children are dieing,getting burnt,this is a catastrophe ,and world leaders are just sitting back, and doing nothing. Israel is using white phosphorus which is known to burn flesh down to the bones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-1k9Y7fcfs&feature=related
CNN has confirmed it.
Why isn't israel the terrorist now? Why aren't they extremists? Aren't they going to extreme enough? Or blood of Palestinians is so cheap that they are being used as lab rats to test American weapons?
I wish i could gather people from whole world and march towards Gaza.
I am sorry i didn't want to offend anyone,but i can't take any more pictures of children's dead bodies,burnt and mutilated.
Zaini.
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A question to all our Arab friends:
Are the Palestinians trully liked among the Arabs?
And I mean the everyday Arab people.
And the reason I am asking this question is that I came to know that some Arab countries have closed their borders to Palestinians while others have made entrance to their countries difficult enough. Not today,when this massacre happens, but long since.I do not know if this is true,is it? And if it is, why does this happen?What are these countries afraid of?
Lena.
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it seems like there are no LaWs for israel and israel dont care for any LAW .. its looks like hte world is hostile by israel and no LAW Applie's on Isreal , its disgusting and realy condemnable situation ...
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Hi everyone.
I hope that, as you watch what is happening in Gaza, does not reduce your faith in Humanity,
I know its hard to envisage such atrocities in our lifetime.when I thought we left those kind of troubles behind,in the dark ages.
I wonder down the road, whom is going to take the responsibility .
It appears as if everyone in the Arab nations is so complaicent, they, just stood there, and allowed The Israelis to kill indiscriminately, Shame shame :mad :mad :mad :mad :mad :mad :mad
I ,myself, are lost for words I dont know why?????????????????.And I feel I can't do a thing to prevent it happen,Perhaps give assistance like donations and Yes, I will not buy any product from Israel that is if I can help it.
And it really get me angry when I see others living without a care while People are getting kill like rats.
WE ARE ALL LOSING OUR SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY towards our fellow human Beings '
This is my thought and I currently Praying for the war to stop I hope you all join me in doing so that is alll we posibly can do right now.
Have hope.
Kathy
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Dear Zaini,
Learn not to apologise for your feelings you have the right to think and feel independantly.I proud of you, :hugfriend :hugfriend :hugfriend
Tell little Z, I'm so proud of her and I hope she gets better with her new medication.
Kathy
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Lena,
I am not Arab,so i can't answer your question,the truth is,if you know the truth essence of islam,not the mutilated version media presents,islam is above any regionality ,Islam tells us to be muslims,not arabs or non arabs,so in a way the responsibility comes on every muslim.
I am sorry we muslims aren't portraying true islam now a days.
Kathy,
Thank you, Your words are very comforting as always.
I will not buy any product from Israel that is if I can help it.
Yes,it will definitely help,if every person in the world,who thinks that what ever Israel is doing is wrong,stops using their products,it will help.
Thanks for your wishes :hugfriend.
Zaini.
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A few hours ago I return from Amsterdam. I spend the night by family and nobody talked about this new war during dinner. We only talked about silly films. After dinner I had to watch a silly film. When it finished they all left the room and I was the only one who watched the journal.
I mean this is exactly the same situation about the rest of my country. Government ignores it, thanks not the party which I support. Ok. the muslim community at some schools in Amsterdam took three minutes silence for all the victims. They wanted to do it nationally, but some people are deaf.
Actually, I am very angry that they attacked several building of the UN and the press. I just heard they attacked HOSPITALS!!!! :o
Why on earth would you attack hospitals? ??? A few days ago I saw ambulances with shot holes...
Btw the Dutch news has showed the press from Israel and Al Jazeera (censored, becauce you can not show everything). Israel shows only their own troops and "desert". The point is that Israel does not show anything of the war.
I know it is not my best written post, but I wanted to let you know what the Dutchies see and think.
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Dear Zaini, you couldn't possibly offend anyone. What is happening in this war on children is beyond offensive.
It is unthinkeable what is going on in Gaza - and Isreal's disregard for human life is despicable.
At the very least I am pleased to report that more and more people are able to see this for what it is. Most Canadians
are strongly against what is happening in Gaza because people have access to the internet and they are able to see different viewpoints. Because people have more information available to them they better able to see through the propaganda. Most people here condemn the acts being committed by Isreal, however I only wish that someone with power would actually do something about it. People who are informed and care about what is happening - don't have power to change anything. As you can see, Isreal has no respect for what the UN has to say. Isreal continues to use the same excuse - that the Hammas are using innocent children as their human shields - by hiding in schools and hospitals to launch rockets - and that the children are being killed in retaliation. I think that we have all had it with this excuse to mercilessly kill civilians, especially children. Isreal is responsible for the deaths of the Gazan children - and for the Isreali children who will pay with their lives for years to come as an aftermath of this.
It sickens me that no one is able to stop Isreal. How do people see the disturbing pictures of children in Gaza and then tuck their children in to sleep at night??
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http://www.alternet.org/audits/120197/
Gaza is an immense concentration camp -- 1.5 million people squeezed into 140 square miles hemmed in on all sides by 25-foot-high walls separated by a vast expanse of bulldozed earth. The 2005 "pull-out" left Gaza still controlled by Israel from air and sea, its entries and exits prisonlike mazes electronically controlled and under constant surveillance. Bombing it, assaulting it with tanks and Uzis, is like shooting animals in a pen. The claptrap about "pinpoint" accuracy and "avoiding civilians" is a lie so flagrant, so transparent, that any child -- certainly any Gaza child -- could grasp it.
There have been eight military assaults on Gaza since 2004; blockades started in 2005, and then a siege of medieval proportions in 2006, punishment for Gazans' having elected the wrong party for Israel and its U.S. patron. By December 2008, Richard Falk, special rapporteur on the Occupied Territories for the United Nations, reported an overall Gaza malnutrition rate of 75 percent, a childhood anemia rate of 46 percent and a devastated infrastructure. (For more, see Richard Falk's "Understanding the Gaza Catastrophe.")
This latest war -- called Operation Cast Lead -- is the "holocaust" promised by Israel's Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai last spring when he said Israel would create a shoa if Qassem rockets kept dropping on Israeli towns like Sderot. Shoa, Hebrew for holocaust, is a serious word denoting the extermination of an entire people. Vilnai embarrassed the Israeli government, and no official has used the term since.
But since Dec. 27, Israel has bombed Gaza's government buildings, universities, mosques, schools, medical clinics. It is impossible to keep pace with the death and injury toll, which rises as I write: on Jan. 13, the Israeli human rights organization B'tselem reported 900 Palestinians killed, with more than 4,200 injured. The Israeli toll: three civilians and seven soldiers killed, more than 82 civilians and 61 soldiers injured. As for Israeli civilians killed by rockets, the Israel Project lists 25 dead during the past seven years.
On the broadcast program Democracy Now, a Norwegian doctor, Mads Gilbert, who had just returned from Gaza to Denmark, told host Amy Goodman that "90 percent of those killed are civilians." Gilbert reported 971 dead, of whom 1 in 3 is a child under 18. He has worked in Gaza for years and was there for the first weeks of Israel's assault.
The Times of London, Human Rights Watch and B'tselem all report the illegal use of white phosphorous to strike civilians. When white phosphorous adheres to flesh, its flames continue to burn for five to 10 minutes, often penetrating to the bone.
Gilbert and other experts think Israel is also using a new weapon called dense inert metal explosive. It was developed by the United States to create lethal, powerful blasts within small areas. DIME inflicts wounds never before seen by surgeons in Gaza. According to Gilbert, conventional shrapnel damages limbs and other body parts as if they'd been cut by a huge knife. DIME, on the other hand, leaves "no signs of shrapnel," but rather "small pieces of some kind of substance" (DIME is made of nickel and cobalt). It crushes "the whole limb," not just part, with "multiple severe fractures, muscles split from bones." Some classify DIME weapons as nuclear because they are based on a fusion process. (Democracy Now, Jan. 14.)
*****
"Take some kittens … in a box. Seal up the box, then jump on it with all your weight and might, until you feel their little bones crunching, and you hear the last muffled little mew," a surgeon named Jamal tells Italian writer Vittorio Arigoni. Bloodstained boxes are fetched; Jamal opens one. It contains "amputated limbs, legs and arms, some from the knee down, others with the entire femur attached . . . from the injured at the Al Fakhura United Nations school in Jabalia, which resulted in more than 50 casualties."
Jamal says, "Israel trapped hundreds of civilians inside a school as if in a box, including many children, and then crushed them with all the might of its bombs. What were the world's reactions? Almost nothing. We would have been better off as animals rather than Palestinians. We would have been more protected."
Arigoni also described the account, by ophthalmologist Dr. Abdel, of strange and terrible wounds he'd never seen before: "Dr. Abdel told me that at Al Shifa hospital, they don't have the medical and military competence to say for sure whether the wounds they examined on certain corpses were indeed provoked by white phosphorous bullets. But on his word, in 20 years on the job, he had never seen casualties like those now being carried into the ward."
These included "traumas to the skull, with fractures to ... the jaw … cheekbones, tear duct, nasal and palatine bones [all showing] signs of the collision of an immense force against the victim's face. What he finds inexplicable is the total lack of eyeballs, which ought to leave a trace somewhere within the skull, even in the case of such violent impact. Instead, we see Palestinian corpses coming into the hospitals without eyes at all, as if someone had removed them surgically before handing them over to the coroner."
Since no international observers are allowed in, judgment about the weapons inflicting such trauma will depend on further reports from Gaza, and corroboration from experts like Gilbert. (Arigoni is an international who reached Gaza by boat during the siege. His report was sent to e-mail lists Jan. 9.)
***
The Israel of Operation Cast Lead is still the Israel of Plan Dalet, under which 750,000 Arabs were expelled from Palestine in 1948. It is the Israel of massacres under Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir on April, 9, 1948, at Deir Yassin; of the Phalangist massacre of 1,500 Palestinians in the Beirut refugee camps Sabra and Shatila, overseen by Defense Minister Ariel Sharon. Held "personally responsible" and cashiered from his post, he later rose to prime minister to resume his malignant policies in the West Bank and Gaza. The late Israeli writer Tanya Reinhardt predicted in 2002 that Israel was starting to finish what it began in 1948. This 60-year-long legacy rages on in Gaza under Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Minister of Defense Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni to the applause of a vengeful Israeli public (see Jan. 13 story in the New York Times.)
Operation Cast Lead is one of the great war crimes of our era. It was planned six to 18 months in advance, according to journalist Jonathan Cook. The war design "required directing artillery fire and air strikes at civilian neighborhoods from which rockets were fired, despite being a violation of international law. Legal advisers, Barak noted, were seeking ways to avoid such prohibitions, presumably in the hope the international community would turn a blind eye."
Operation Cast Lead fulfills at least three of the points under Article 2 in the Convention on Genocide: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
So to President-elect Barack Obama in his silence; to our senators and representatives who obediently parrot American Israel Public Affairs Committee's lines, forgiving the occupier and blaming the occupied, I'd address European Parliament member Luisa Morgantini's closing words in her open letter to European leaders:
"Israel has a right to exist as a normal state, a state for its citizens, along the 1967 borders, much wider than those of the partition plan passed by the United Nations in 1947. But I would have liked to hear your outrage and your humanity, and to hear you shouting for the pain of so many deaths and so much destruction, for such arrogance, for so much inhumanity, for so many violations of international and humanitarian law. ...
"My God, what a terrible world we live in!"
What can I add other than, how can anyone on earth support this?
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What i wonder is,if US citizens can see it's wrong,and many Non Muslims are condemning it,we are seeing protests being held in many countries of the world,what is the reaction of Israeli people? Do they justify children's killings? Do they think that their own kids are safe while other kids are being mutilated?
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The vast majority of US citizens see Israel as completely right and rejoice at the death of Muslims. It's quite sick.
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Oh! I thought may be now a days when media sources are available every where in many forms,they must have tried to look for what's truth,alas :( . That's sad.US is a very powerful country in the world and it it's citizens aren't going to realize the truth ,they'll keep electing people who'll keep going on with the same murderous policies,and nothing will change.
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The vast majority of US citizens see Israel as completely right and rejoice at the death of Muslims. It's quite sick.
Andy, correct me if I'm wrong,I am of the opinion that the US congress is made of a body of Jews.
And also the Jews has infiltrated most of businesses In the US. Without this Kind of power, they wouldn't be able to do what they are doing now.
What a pitty they are distroying the same thing that they are fighting for. How stupid is that???????????
I often wonder if people realise that we come to earth, with nothing and leave this world with nothing.
Senseless : ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Little that we all know,this war affects everyone in the world, direct or indirectly we will pay a price.
Emotionally and economically,
Therefor we are all in the same boat, we Cann't afford the luxury of happiness at the expence of everybody elses' misery.
Kathy
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http://www.alternet.org/audits/120197/
What can I add other than, how can anyone on earth support this?
Andy
I believe people support this, because they feel powerless, greedy, selfish.
they are not thinking of the consequences of the aftermath.How it will affects us all
they think, its over there and its not our worries, basically, we are all too busy with material things which overtakes priority in our daily lives.
It is a sad state of affairs because some of us has no ampathy towards other Human-beings
Kathy
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Kathy,
The Congress is not mostly made up of Jews, although one of New York's senators is Schumer who is the most completely useless politician who has yet to do a single thing to represent the people of New York, but since he is Jewish he does get re-elected. However, I think there needs to be a distinction between Jews and Israel. Many Jews oppose the actions of Israel over the past 60 years. Many feel the horror just as we do. I don't want to label Jews anymore than Muslims should be labeled for the acts of a few who claim to be Muslim but follow no Muslim beliefs. In the US it is so politically incorrect to ever say a word against Jews that it is almost impossible to get the truth to the people. The media shows such a one-sided view that most Americans think that killing Muslims anywhere is good for the world. For any intelligent being who knows enough to NOT believe every idiotic thing that the government promotes through the media, it is hard to understand how people accept every new false statement that the government makes. Most Americans now accept that we invaded Iraq under false pretenses, yet most of these same people believe the lies that Israel and the US have promoted to justify this genocidal invasion.
You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Unfortunately, the some of the people who can be fooled ALL of the time, is now the majority and this is true everywhere on earth.
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This genocide will end when Obama makes his ''first'' speech in the coming days. He will talk about the situation in one or two lines and will invite the two parties for negociation either directly or indirectly... the same old scenario that happened before in the other masacares like Jenein for example........ I believe that this was known before hand
Kathy,i agree about what Andy said concerning Jews I think there needs to be a distinction between Jews and Israel.
Not all Jews are Zionests
manal
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Thank-you Andy ,
I appreciate the education,
At times, I read too much nonesense :rotfl :rotfl , politics interest me ,I have the need to know, how any society functions
thank-you Manal for the clarification.
I need to learn more, its very interesting,
Kathy
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I could have annihilated all the Jews in the world, but I left some of them so you will know why I was killing them.
Adolf Hitler said in his book "My Struggle"
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Tarig, I do not understand you. And if I do, I hope I understand you wrong.
Kathy, I love politics. I love to learn new things about (almost) everything. Three years ago I started to chat with a Russian guy. He was really an eyeopener for me. When I look back to the past I do not understand why I did believe everything they said. (I believe that Georgia is the one to blame about the war of the summer, the gas row is very complicated) Btw there is a book about the Israel lobby it is called The Israel Lobby (and U.S. Foreign Policy) written by John J. Mearsheimer & Stephen M. Walt.
Manal, Israel made a one-sided resolution with the US. Gaza Strip will be a zoo or something. It is unbelievable. I can not even find words for it. All those children are too traumatize. They will never leave this behind them.
Andy, I love that saying.
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all the wordl is protesting against isreal, then wat is the thing behind israel whichis psuhing israel forward to this all ???....
why they are doing this , why they are killing the innocents why they are spreadnig the anger for israel in whole world by kiling palestinian ??? does Israelian like wat their government is doing ???..
if yes then why ?? or if not then why they dont try to stop their government ???...
Insert Quote
I could have annihilated all the Jews in the world, but I left some of them so you will know why I was killing them.
Adolf Hitler said in his book "My Struggle"
so we got to know why he was doing that !..
Note : if hitler was doing genocide killing then he was alos wrong , and now israel is doing the same he is wrongand condemnable as well ... i thiink jews have tasted the wound of genocide kiling so they have to avoid all the thing like this , they have to thanx Arab's bcoze Arabs gave them a home to live when they was down .... arab were soo kind when Jews was facing the difficulties many of them were killed and many of them had no shelter , arabs gave them the place and shelter ..... and wat Jews are doing with them ..killing the people who were the friends of their difficult times ... IT SHOULD BE STOPPed NOW !!
take care
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Note : if hitler was doing genocide killing then he was alos wrong
He absolutely did do that. Sadly, (when he was here) the Netherlands did help him a lot (like other countries), but even my grandfather's family fight for the rights of Jews people.
and now israel is doing the same he is wrongand condemnable as well ... i thiink jews have tasted the wound of genocide kiling so they have to avoid all the thing like this , they have to thanx Arab's bcoze Arabs gave them a home to live when they was down .... arab were soo kind when Jews was facing the difficulties many of them were killed and many of them had no shelter , arabs gave them the place and shelter ..... and wat Jews are doing with them ..killing the people who were the friends of their difficult times ...
I think that every human must know what love of one's neighbour is. We do a lot of good things by talking to each other. To be honest, I never talked with people from Pakistan, Egypte e.g. before. It is like the story I told hear before.
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Tariq, I do not understand you. And if I do, I hope I understand you wrong.
I just shared a quote thats all. I didn't and would never agree to Hitler's acts. Killing people is wrong, simple as that. Its just that since whole world condemns Hitler so much that his name is now used as an adjective like "Don't be Hitler to everyone" etc. But what is done to Palestinians is almost of same degree. I hope you understand me right this time.
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I just shared a quote thats all. I didn't and would never agree to Hitler's acts. Killing people is wrong, simple as that. Its just that since whole world condemns Hitler so much that his name is now used as an adjective like "Don't be Hitler to everyone" etc. But what is done to Palestinians is almost of same degree. I hope you understand me right this time.
Yes, now I do
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The media shows such a one-sided view that most Americans think that killing Muslims anywhere is good for the world. For any intelligent being who knows enough to NOT believe every idiotic thing that the government promotes through the media, it is hard to understand how people accept every new false statement that the government makes. Most Americans now accept that we invaded Iraq under false pretenses, yet most of these same people believe the lies that Israel and the US have promoted to justify this genocidal invasion.
That's plain ignorance,as true information is only clicks away now a days,i took Andy's thoughts to be American thoughts on general,i thought many of Americans might see the situation like Andy or Sharmin or Kathy.It's very sad and unfortunate that it's not the case.
On the other hand muslims are equally responsible for whatever is happening,i heard Husne Mubarak went against of calling the Arab league meeting,i don't know why.
If we Muslims aren't going to help them,how can we expect anyone else to do so.
Zaini.
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I received this email after making a comment about this massacre on a message board.
Isreal has been bombed by rockets for three years..since the truce was made with GAza, and never before fired back.
2) Hamas contiued to send rockets into Israel even when they were told they owuld be BOMBED if they didn't stop. They were give more than 24 hours to stop sending the rockets..THEY REFUSED TO STOP
3) tHEREFORE, SINCE THEY WOULDNT STOP....ISRAEL WAS 100% JUSTIFIED IN WIPING OUT THEIR ENEMIES... THE SLIMY HAMAS, WOULD SEND ROCKETS FROM APARTMENTBUILDINGS, SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS WHERE THERE WERE LOTS OF CIVILIANS....SO THE RETALIATION WOULD KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD WOULD TAKE THEIR SIDE, EVEN THOUGH, THEY ENCOURAGE A WAR. AND YOU ARE FALLING FOR THEIR CRAP
This is typical of the ignorant uninformed Americans who never make any attempt to find news outside the corporate media. There is no truth in what is said here (ceasefire was 6 months, for example). The corporate media has the same agenda as the US government that the corporations have bought and paid for. What this person said is so completely ignorant and lacking in fact, but the vast majority of Americans think like this. It is very sad that we allow corporations to control what we think, whether it be about was or the latest new drug. Learning to think for one's self is so important but most people never learn to do it.
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George Galloway answering to comments on the issue. It has five parts, this is the link to first one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03LG7uTFtLM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03LG7uTFtLM)
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Tariq, thanks for the link. Westerners are so inundated with propaganda through our "free press" that they never consider what it must be like to be evicted from your own land and put into eternal refugee (concentration) camps, and persecuted even in these horrible conditions. Israel has been killing Palestinians for over 60 years. Why wouldn't the Palestinians react? Why wouldn't they fight their oppressors? Why would they sit and wait for their turn to die? Nowhere on earth are people supposed to happily accept oppression like the world expects of the Palestinians. It is sick.
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That's plain ignorance,as true information is only clicks away now a days,i took Andy's thoughts to be American thoughts on general,i thought many of Americans might see the situation like Andy or Sharmin or Kathy.It's very sad and unfortunate that it's not the case.
I think that it is no coincidence that those of us who are members of this site are the ones that are able to see what is going on in Gaza for what it is. We have a desire to find more information about an issue that we are passionate about - whether it is helping our loves ones their blood disorder, to communicate with and support others globally with this disease or to learn what injustices are being carried out in Gaza. Perhaps those that take the information that is spoon fed to them and believe it to be true - whether it be about Isreal or thalassemia - prefer to have someone else do the research and tell them what to do.
Some people don't care to research better treatment for thalassemia - they let the doctor worry about it - we are a group of people of people who need to find the absolute best care for our loved ones (or ourselves). Perhaps it is this same attribute that drives us to seek the truth about what is going on in Gaza.
I wish that more people were driven to learn for themselves, unfortunately it appears most people don't want to make the effort to learn beyond what they are being influenced to believe. What a cost to humanity this it is that people can sit back and blame the Hamas for what Isreal is doing. It is a shame.
Sharmin
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Nice parallel, Sharmin. Honestly, it was when I realized how little so many thals understood about thal, that I realized how much help was needed. Knowledge is power and I have dedicated myself to spreading knowledge so people can make better and informed decisions about their treatment. And I agree. We have a good discourse about Gaza because people are not willing to just accept what the corporate media tells them. Kudos to our members for choosing to be informed on the issues. :thumbsup
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Strange to see there are Jews that think Israel should not exist and what Israel is doing is against there beliefs and that can lead to their own destruction.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&feature=related (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&feature=related)
But then again, its Fox News. Its always hard to believe them.
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Well , i would like to give a short message here :
With War , You May Win the Land to live for a little time period...
With Love , you can win the Hearts of the people and can live their forever , even after your death ....
From
Me :grin
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[quote But then again, its Fox News. Its always hard to believe them.
[/quote]
This is the best thing Fox News ever did: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344010,00.html (I know the first family)
That is a nice saying! Well done Umair! :smileblue
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But then again, its Fox News. Its always hard to believe them.
This is the best thing Fox News ever did: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344010,00.html (I know the first family)
That is a nice saying! Well done Umair! :smileblue
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With War , You May Win the Land to live for a little time period...
With Love , you can win the Hearts of the people and can live their forever , even after your death ....
I love your quote Umair - I think that you should write a book on quotes!
Sharmin
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A local news paper printed this picture today,and caption is "Israeli militants involved in Gaza blockade and attacks are reciting Torah,if they were muslims and were reciting Quran,western media would have called them extremists and fundamentalists".
(http://express.com.pk/images/NP_KHI/20090119/Sub_Images/1100557151-1.jpg)
Zaini.
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usualy i dont got the words to turn my feelings into words but ,this time i think i did this a lil bit ..... :whew i did or did. ....?? :scratch :scratch ... Confused , soo :grin ..
Umair
@topic
Zaini you're absolutely right , i would like post a joke on the point you raised up .... realy soon :thmubsup ...
Umair
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There is something about this thread that bothers me and it's when people mix Israel and all Jewish people. I don't think it's right anymore than when people mix terrorists claiming to be Muslim, with all Muslims. It is just wrong either way. I have had many Jewish friends in my life and we have all seen videos and pics of Jews protesting the actions of the Israeli government. Please do not blame a whole segment of the world because politicians ruin the world. Politicians lie and mislead people into supporting them but most often, it ends badly for those who believed. The war in Iraq is a prime example of people being gullible and believing what should have been obvious had the press done anything but become a mouthpiece for a criminal president. Most Americans will now admit they were lied to and no longer support our involvement in Iraq, but at the time. close to 90% of Americans voiced approval. If only people learned to think for themselves and question what leaders say.
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I don't know much about the Gaza issue, so can't comment on that, but let me tell you one thing. While, most of the people in Pakistan might be peace loving, there are a lot of problems, which lie inside pakistan. There are training camps, where these people - who are sent to create terror (to kill innocent people) get their training. These camps were operated in Afganistan and with the US war, has shifted to Pakistan and most of the world knows it. Training camps for groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba which i think changed it's name to Jamaat-ud-Dawa are being operated in Pakistan. I would ask whose job is it to stop those camps?? Such camps were in Afghanistan previously(totally supported by the Taliban government), which after the strikes in Afghan have moved to Pakistan. If the government of Pakistan tries to take hard actions against these extremists and stop saying that whenever something happens somewhere and links are tied back to pakistan - that pakistan is blamed without a reason. Instead may be the government should start taking actions instead of denying that terrorist training camps do operate in Pakistan. They did start taking actions only after they were pressurized to do it. Look at the story below.
Pakistan cracks down on Jamaat ud-Dawa
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pakistan16-2009jan16,0,3064256.story
Also, look at http://www.ladlass.com/intel/archives/cat_jamaat-ud-dawa.html
This site clearly shows what is going on in Pakistan. Or if you want go to google and search Terrorism and Pakistan and you will get so many hits.
Look at the London bombings or those caught during the war in Afghanistan and most of the 9/11 terrorist were trained in pakistan. I don't understand the citizens of Pakistan trying to ignore all this. I remember in year 99 or in 2000, when Afghan was ruled by the Talibans, there was an Indian Airlines plane hijacked by the terrorist and they demanded some prisoners to be released for the freedom of the hostages of the hijacked plane. These terrorist were allowed to walk out with what they wanted. Why?? because they were in Afghanistan where the Talibans were ruling. The terrorist along with those released were let go in a vehicle and today they operate training from Pakistan. They have been many times under house arrest by the government of pakistan. Why not, just give these terrorist to India and try to really show that Pakistan wants peace???
It is rightly said that "A society degenerates because the wise people keep quiet & do not dare to act pomptly so the anti socials (in this case the muslim extremists) take control & start what we see as Do What They Want Rule" which is difficult to get rid of. Even educated muslims are falling for this Osama's jannati reward temptings -like the 9/11 rogues in US. If the general population stops supporting these activities, we might see peace.
One of the member has clearly mentioned that - they want a stable neighbour and many of you have mentioned that poverty can lead to problems. The problems lies in that. Some of the posts even mention, that they are left with nothing and these terrorist use them by providing them with money and brain washing them to do these rude acts. I hear that the 10 terrorist were all those who had no relations to their families were picked after training for more than a month.
Imagine twelve people cross the Naval defence of a regional power of Asia, in a boat :huh. And they find there way to high security area of Mumbai with loads of guns and ammo. Then they have everything settled in hotels and they have stocks of ammo and food for them to spend time there.Can that get more dumb than this? ??? Why the whole world accepts a ridiculous made-up story by India, but when we say we didn't do it, they don't accept.
This member is clearly not knowing whats going on or is trying to ignore it. Highly trained terrorist can do this. As, I mentioned earlier they were trained. They were not settled in hotels - they ran from the boat into 5 different teams and they went with their ammunitions and dry fruits. I dont have anything against you. I just want you to say that this can happen and there is a lot of evidence that points to it. The person caught has said he was trained in Pakistan, is a resident of Pakistan and he along with the 9 people came in the boat from Pakistan. There is evidence of the GPS(preprogrammed with routes from Pakistan), ToothBrush, Guns, clothes. the fishing troller, satellite phone (with records of chat with the controller in Pakistan - who was giving instructions on the phone to the terrorist). A good make up story. Please try to think that Pakistan is shooting itself. You might even say the 9/11 terrorist coming into US, were all fake. The 9/11 terrorist came to a country where everyone is welcome. did u know, that US has such a multi culture, that i dont think is there in Pakistan or for that matter any muslim country. The 9/11 terrorist came and lived in US and were roaming freely. They were human bombs that exploded with their brain washed minds and were toys operated by the osamas of the world. They were also highly trained in camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Today, whereever, there is a problem, there are links tied back to Pakistan. It has become a dangerous place as even pakistan itself faces problem by these religious (so-called) mullahs (as some of you mention islam does not preach violence). But, being educated and a person who can think - should think if by keeping the views that whatever happens is due to others fault.
The thinking is a major factor and I think if people start thinking that just by killing innocent people, they are going to achieve what they want is totally wrong. Someone else mentioned that by killing themselves they will be rewarded by God, I doubt it. God is same for everyone. Try to accept other religions and the problems will be solved. Only by accepting others will you be able to look at others as others and not the enemy of Islam.
As someone stated, War is not the solution to anything. It is not going to benifit anyone. So change the feeling of others looking at islam as enemy. that is not the case. has any of you visited US? Muslims or any other culture people are treated with respect. they can roam around freely and do all what they want. they work with us and they can whatever they want with us. we are a free nation and all are welcome. is that allowed in any muslim country? i have heard of females not allowed to go to school in afghanistan, females having problems with their husbands and still having to live with them in many muslim countries.
This post is not to offend anyone. we respect the world as does the world respect us but by looking into the mirror you will realize who you are. Learn to have peace and you will get peace.
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Me too i don't know much about the situation in Pakistain or India, but i do know about other stuff quiet well.
First,
Try to accept other religions and the problems will be solved. Only by accepting others will you be able to look at others as others and not the enemy of Islam.
*Who said that muslims do not accept other religions, this is totally wrong and there is no point of view here cause you can not be a muslim unless you believe and NOT ONLY accept christinaty with its prophet Jeseus and the Jews religion with their prophet Moses. So it is one of the pillars of Islam that is why i say there is no point of view here cause if you get any typical muslim from any country in this world, the same thing will be said
* Revising history and since Islam arised and there were Islamic nations, all people with different religions were living togather. Even at the begining of the Islamic era, no one was ever foreced to leave his religion and becone a muslim because again simply you can not do this unless you are convienced with the essence and beliefs of this reliogion
* Media has created a steryotype that Islam was propagated by sword and again if you read history this wasn't the case. When Islam came to Egypt for example, Christians were suffering from the torture of the romans and on the contrary they welcomed the muslims cause they were a relief for them at this time. From that date muslims and christians live in thsi country with no one asking the other''what is your religion''. I personally was raised in a non muslim school and i never felt any difference or this thought of what you belive in has even crossed my mind or my friends from other religions.
* One last thing on this point, Islam will not gain forcing people to join it and will not lose if muslims became against it. We are talking about a religion and a belief here that addressing it as an enamy is meaningless
has any of you visited US? Muslims or any other culture people are treated with respect. they can roam around freely and do all what they want. they work with us and they can whatever they want with us. we are a free nation and all are welcome
Yes i have visited the US several times and what you claim is not true, becuase you can find discrimination. In the US, there is the biggest margin of freedom you can find in any country but at the same time you can find discrimination on many levels. Many times, you can see veiled ladies who were pushed on the streets because their veil showed they are muslims. With all the civilization and tecnology there is still discrimination of race which till now is not understood by me. Does this all suggest that all American s are like this or all christians are like this, definetly not
is that allowed in any muslim country?
Yes, you will never find a muslim country that dicriminate people according to race simply because it is not allowed in our religion, does this suggest any thing about muslim countries and makes them the best, definetly not
i have heard of females not allowed to go to school in afghanistan, females having problems with their husbands and still having to live with them in many muslim countries.
Who said that this relates to islam by any means??????? At the time of the prophet, women were allowed to learn and get educated, they even went to wars. In islam, it is just enough for a woman to feel that she does not want to continue her life with her husband to get divorce and at the same time she gets all her rights.
But what you said is found too in some countries but because of laws (which is not Islamic at all ) . because of governments and the list goes on.
When Europe was in the dark ages Islamic countries were the leading and all the the basics of now a days technolgy were taken from the islamic nations, so how is islam against education and knowlege.
you are just relating everything to Isalm which is not the case and in every religion you have extremists. You can not judge the whole religion with the actions of its extremists. And you can not mix politics with religion. Extremeist are the result of weak believers who are manipulated by dirty politics and it is all about interests and not religions. It is all about power. Was religion ever a cause for any war on earth now or in the past never. Now a days whose land is being invaded & colonized and people are thrown out of their countries as refeugges?? Who??
Learn to have peace and you will get peace.
Give me one example when an isalmic nation has gone through this, and please don't mention extremist acts as they are usually used by a third party to cause instability.
Finally i can not hide that i am really offended, first because i am really unable to express my self in english, i have many things to say but the language does not help
Second, because i can not imagine that anybody can judge a religion from what is said about it in the media and judging a billion people by acts of exremists found in every country and every religion. Religions are not for people to critise them but for people to belive in them. How can someone talk about something he never read about???
manal
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I am offended too,
First of all Pakistani people ARE peace loving ,there is not a question of "might be".
Laskar-e-Taiba or Jamat-ud Dawa are originated from Afghanistan right? Taliban are from Afganistan right? Who backed up Taliban in the first place? When Russia entered Afghanistan,who loaded them with missiles an ammunition? Yes US did.So i guess when someone is fighting your enemy ,they are "Mujahideen" and when they fight against you for what they consider is right they are "Terrorist" ,Damn right.
When ever US planes hit in our northern areas on so-called training camps,they happened to be Madrassas, with innocent kids learning islamic education in them,i remember once US planes hit a Madrassa and hundreds of innocent kids died their,were they terrorist?and you may say that the Madrassa was serving as a hiding for terrorists,so that is what you do,kill the innocents along with the accused? How would you feel if they were American kids?
I can't understand why the term extremist is always related with Muslims,i had that question in mind when i posted that photo,i was never mixing Israelis and Jewish people,there are always good and bad people in every nation or religion ,so of course all Jewish people would not support the brutality of Israeli attacks,just as many many Muslims condemn 9/11,though it's a controversial issue and i don't wanna argue about Jewish lobby's involvement in this,Go check YouTube.
Muslims are terrorist because they kill people ,And according to western media mostly non Muslim people right ? So why isn't Israel a terrorist when it kills innocents in Gaza,why would US support Israel? Why would US give them all advanced weaponry to test on Plaestinians,Israel stops water,switch off elecricity ,even in the hospitals ,medicines are not available,but no again they can't be terrorists and they have full US support.
Why isn't US terroris when they hit Madrassa in Pakistan,wedding ceremonies in Afghanistan and again support Israel in killing Palestinians.
You say why Pakistani citizens choose to ignore this,i ask why US citizens not reach out for the truth?
Just tell me why 20000 people alone in US converted to Islam,if that is such an unjust religion ( NAUZ BILLAH).
Accept Islam and all problems will be solved.Any kind of innocent killing is not done on behalf of Islam,they are people of weak believes as Manal said,and they can exist in any faith.
Zaini.
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Jake said,
I don't know much about the Gaza issue, so can't comment on that,
Well well first line tells the whole story. This surely depicts the anti-muslim thoughts you have. When someone was busy killing hundreds of innocent people for 22 days and forget the 22 days, this is happening since so many years now. But no, you know nothing about it .... or maybe you are somewhat speechless on this.
Highly trained terrorist can do this. As, I mentioned earlier they were trained.
So you admit, that Pakistanis are smart and they have sophisticated technology and techniques. Can Pakistan be that stupid that they send their own man which have ID cards in their pockets ??? Wouldn't it be easy to buy some Achoots (which are treated worse than animals in so called Secular India), the Achoots are sure angry enough to do anything to take a revenge.
Also consider that theives enter your house despite the fact that you have security guards on door, who would you blame?? guards right. Since there are only two options to break security, kill the guards or make them part of your gang. So if terrorist entered by dogging indian naval defence, strong action should have been taken againsts them right?
Let me take you bit back in time, Samjhota Express was attacked in India killing mostly Pakistanis. As usual, it was to be blamed to Pakistan. But time and investigation revealed that Colonel Purohit of India was involved. I am quote this from a news site
Third important development, which has sent shivers down everybody’s spine in India, occurred a month ago when the shocking revelation was made that some officers of Indian army and intelligence were involved in many bloody episodes of bomb blasts in India, including Samjhuta Express bomb explosion that killed 68 people mostly Pakistanis. Anti Terrorist Squad (ATS) branch of India arrested Lt. Colonel and military intelligence officer Karat Purohit, and another army officer in this regard. According to the Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS), “Col Purohit has been clandestinely working with terror networks, organising funds, ammunition and training for Sangh Parivar activists to carry out bomb blasts.”
Meanwhile, Col Purohit has also been granted bail despite the fact that the provincial government had claimed that it has incontrovertible evidence of his involvement in terrorists’ activities. In this regard, the article published in countercurrent.com under the caption of “Mumbai terror attack: further evidence of the Anglo-American-Mossad-RSS nexus” by Ameresh Mishra – an Indian writer, historian and poet – is also of worth reading. In this article he analyses Mumbai attacks as a “joint operation by RSS and Mossad” by emphasising that “the attackers would not have come from the sea route without some kind of a connivance of Gujarat and Maharashtra governments with the terrorists and the connivance of RSS type Hindutva elements…” India is basking in the glow of the sympathies of the world community after the Mumbai carnage, and is in a position to pressurise Pakistan as much as it can. So, it has embarked upon the task of lashing out at Pakistan which is already in a mess due to its internal problems. Nevertheless, the need is to realise that Mumbai attacks are as much disastrous for Pakistan as these are for India. So, it is quite clear that whoever has masterminded and carried out Mumbai attacks wanted to bring Pakistan in disrepute, and India is now trying to get Pakistan declared as a terrorist state.
So this is said by Indian writer, don't blame me.
Jake, Since you are such ignorant about innocent muslims being killed, i bet you don't know anything about Kashmir. Despite the numerous resolutions by UN to hold referendum, India keeps on chanting the same "Atoot Ang" (which means Unbreakable part i think). Since you spend lot of time searching for links proving pakis terrorist, plz take sometime and explore Kashmir issue as well.
@topic, it seems like Gaza has reached a cease fire, this topic itself needs a peace resolution.
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I was not going to comment again and have not, despite wanting to a couple of times .... but, this is just unacceptable to me.
Jake said,
Can Pakistan be that stupid that they send their own man which have ID cards in their pockets ??? Wouldn't it be easy to buy some Achoots (which are treated worse than animals in so called Secular India), the Achoots are sure angry enough to do anything to take a revenge.
Who the @@@@ are you to call anyone an untouchable ("achoot") and ascribe motives to them? Are you even aware how seriously we take this issue in India, the number of positive discrimination laws which exist to undo the previous social ills, how far the "downtrodden" have progressed in India? The Chief Minister of the most populous state of India. Uttar Pradesh, is your so-called "achoot" class - SHE dreams of being the prime minister of India .... and, hundreds of millions of people dream along with her. It may even become a reality in May 2009. So, watch your language.
And, while we are name-calling, may I respectfully ask this: the men of which nation use RAPE to enforce their backward, tribal norms?????
Let me take you bit back in time, Samjhota Express was attacked in India killing mostly Pakistanis. As usual, it was to be blamed to Pakistan. But time and investigation revealed that Colonel Purohit of India was involved. I am quote this from a news site
So this is said by Indian writer, don't blame me.
Yes, absolutely right .... but let us complete the picture, shall we. All the plotters were arrested by Indian police forces on evidence collected by them, without fear or favour, and without being prodded by any one. The alleged perps are in jail, charge sheets have been recently filed and the men and one woman shall stand trial. If found guilty, they will go to jail for minimum 10 years to life.
What has Pakistan done about the LeT and JuD and the various other assorted madmen? BTW, Tariq, the Pakistani govt has *finally* agreed that the Mumbai terrorists came from Pakistan - so, get over the delusion, will you.
And, I can assure you that the world sees the difference in conduct.
I do hope you guys wake up soon, before your nation is wiped out by the talibs. I hear they are already enforcing no-music, no-movies, no-nothing rules on Lahore.
Poirot
PS: Kashmir just voted - average turnout 68%. National Conference-Congress coalition govt sworn in. Separatist head Geelani says that maybe the Hurriyat did not understand what the ordinary Kashmiris wanted. The battle for hearts and mind is over. Secular and high-growth India won. Time to move on.
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To everyone,
After all is said and done, it add up to " we are all the same ,we have the same" needs" maybe different "wants".
Lets not argue among ourselves we are all priceless Human-beings
To Manal and Zaini Unless one has walk in your shoes and face your worries one cannot undestand your situations therefore. one can never told you who you are.
Its useless getting angry you are wasting your energy.
There are discrimination in all societies regardless and some more than others.
Be the wiser because you both are.
Love from Kathy
Kathy
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Who the @@@@ are you to call anyone an untouchable ("achoot")
We don't, you and your society do. Like you yourself said the number of positive discrimination laws which exist to undo the previous social ills
Since you are trying to keep your eyes closed and ignore the realities of atrocities happening with in your own homeland.I would suggest you search for Dalits in India on youtube and see for yourself. The Gaza violence and massacre is nothing compared to what you would get to see. If you are trying to hide it, then its another issue. Just explain to the people here why do you call them Dalits and what is the concept behind it in Indian. Your famous award winning muslm composer AR Rehman was a Dallit who was not even allowed to enter the music studio. Separate arrangement was made for him to play his instrument outside the studio because he was untouchable. He then converted to Islam and is now considered acceptable by your so called secular society.
the men of which nation use RAPE to enforce their backward, tribal norms
Do u really think i or any sane person will support this...No....we too condemn it, and you will know if you have access to our local newspapers. But again, since every insane act finally links up to politics, we common people cannot do anything but to condemn that.
Please understand the difference between religion and people acts.To tell the fact, movies and musics are not allowed in Islam. Its just that we are not following Islam in its true essence.
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After all is said and done, it add up to " we are all the same ,we have the same" needs" maybe different "wants".
Lets not argue among ourselves we are all priceless Human-beings
Very true, Kathy.
I "want" a Lamborghini !!!
Poirot
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Tariq:
Let us get something very clear here ...... India is not heaven, nowhere close to it, and parts of it are actually hell. I do not have my eyes closed to what my nation is .... at the same time, I have a sense for what my nation can become. I will be the first to condemn the mess made by our politicians .... I have no false pride in my country, and do not/will not rush to defend every single thing that it does.
Does caste-based discrimination not happen in India today? Of course, it does.
Does it mean it is accepted by us? No.
We have special and stringent laws to deal with caste-driven atrocities .... and people are punished when guilty. We also have positive discrimination such as reservations for backward communities in schools, colleges and govt jobs. It takes time to undo ages-old discrimination. There was "institutionalised" colour-based discrimination (Jim Crow laws) in the US even in the 70's. In India TODAY, institutionalised discrimination or atrocities are few and far between - and, are dealt with very harshly, if and when it happens.
I do not know whether you know this: the so-called "backward castes" control the legislatures of UP, Bihar, MP, Rajasthan and Tamil Nadu in India. They also provide the single largest block of MPs to our parliament and formulate policies. So, we have come a long way, although lot still remains to be done.
But, this issue does not affect you, does it, apart from "showing India down"? Are the "backward castes" sending terrorists into Pakistan?
However, we are affected by the crap that happens in Pakistan - we are now spending money on defence, which could be better spent on education, health care and sanitation in India. We spend c. 10% of our GDP on defence - how stupid is that for a poor country, who has over 300m people subsisting on less than $2 a day. But. we are FORCED to spend this money, because we have a very unstable, psychotic neighbour.
Who cares about A R Rehman's religion? Did he really convert? If he was treated so badly in India, why does he still live here and sell his craft here? We just like his music, as we like the music of Mohammed Rafi (among others). Did you know that Bollywood is powered by muslim actors? Do we care about their religion? No. We just care about the quality of the entertainment they provide us.
Is Islam really against music and movies? How silly. So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?
Poirot
PS: Secular means the separation of religion and state - neither shall interfere in the matters of the other. And, yes, we are a secular republic. Why does that cause you so much angst?
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Chinese intelligence could be involved in Mumbai attacks. Editorial in Indian website.
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20391.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20391.asp)
Story can change this time also just like it did in Samjhota Express attack.
Is Islam really against music and movies? How silly. So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?
Not according to me, but Islamic beliefs. Please study Islam or don't talk about it at all. Whatever practice which was not done in time of Muhammad PBUH is not part of Islam. Again, plz atleast try to understand (i know its hard) the difference between religion and personal acts/culture.
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Chinese intelligence could be involved in Mumbai attacks. Editorial in Indian website.
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20391.asp (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/20391.asp)
Story can change this time also just like it did in Samjhota Express attack.
Please ...... can we be serious here and quote responsible sources, not just any random website. The *Pakistani govt* now says that India has provided "good evidence" and it is acting to apprehend the perps. Some are already behind bars. So, can we please stop with the delusions.
Not according to me, but Islamic beliefs. Please study Islam or don't talk about it at all. Whatever practice which was not done in time of Muhammad PBUH is not part of Islam. Again, plz atleast try to understand (i know its hard) the difference between religion and personal acts/culture.
You are right, it is truly hard for me to understand .... on one hand, you have the Talibs (the pure) saying that only they are the true followers and they are the enforcers of *true* Islam. OTOH, you imply, even if you do not say it, personal acts/culture can be different ....... so, which one is it?
Study Islam? How can I when all "true-believers" insist that you have to study it in Arabic, and not any other language?
(BTW, this is what the Brahmin priests used to say back in c. 500 AD about religious texts in Sanskrit, which led to Buddha winning many converts because he preached in Pali, the local language).
Please recommend a good English text, and I will be happy to peruse it.
I truly envy Europe with its "post-religious" thinking.
Anyway, I am done posting on this thread.
Poirot
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Whatever practice which was not done in time of Muhammad PBUH is not part of Islam.
One last thing, Tariq:
By the definition you propose above, electricity, automobiles, L1/Exjade and the internet should all be un-Islamic?
Also, AK-47s?
:smiley
Poirot
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I was expecting this from you, Islam is a way of life not the tools we use. i told you its hard....keep trying
Arabic is not a hard language, u can learn it if you want. Arabic is prefered because that is the language the original Quran was in, and translations are human.
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I see ..... god's wisdom was revealed to the Prophet, and then the words just wrote themselves down on a book, without any third-party intervention.
I trust you do have and only read the original book .... who knows what human intervention might have done in the publishing business.
Meanwhile, let me get on with my life instead ...... thanks for chatting with me.
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sure, no need to thank. Pleasure is all mine :smiley
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All fellow members of the site,
Just tell me if attacking anyone's religion or Prophet is right? I am really offended and i protest.
Kathy ,
Thanks for your kind words.
Zaini.
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"has any of you visited US? Muslims or any other culture people are treated with respect. they can roam around freely and do all what they want. they work with us and they can whatever they want with us. we are a free nation and all are welcome. is that allowed in any muslim country? i have heard of females not allowed to go to school in afghanistan, females having problems with their husbands and still having to live with them in many muslim countries. "
I am not so sure that everyone is treated with respect and equally in the US. Are you not aware of the discrimination between white and black there?. Had it not been for the economic crisis in America, I do not think Obama would have won and before this year no black man made it to the white house. Only yesterday on the news they were saying that though presidency has gone to a non-white, the gap between the white and the black is being enlarged because of the removal of the policy to provide school bus to students.
"i have heard of females not allowed to go to school in afghanistan, females having problems with their husbands and still having to live with them in many muslim countries. "
I totally disagree, do not take traditions and culture for Islam. What people do does not point to the religion. If a thief is muslim, it does mean that Islam preaches robbery. Religion is there with its precepts but people interprete the precepts differently and there are varying degrees of compliance.Religion sets out the rules to follow but what a person does is his own decision. Women have every the right to divorce in Islam, even before marrying the woman/girl has to give her consent. If this is not followed do not blame the religion but blame the tradition of that region. Women are thought to be the nurturers of tomorrow's citizens and they have to be educated in order to pass on this education to their offspring.
As far as I know, Islam preaches the respect of every other religion. Each one has his own beliefs and please respect the beliefs of others though you may not believe in them. You may question a certain belief but do not mock it.
"Is Islam really against music and movies? How silly. So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?"
As far as I know it is the show of semi nakedness in certain movies that are not accepted. You also have to agree that the way the actors and actresses dress influences our youngsters choice of dress and even behaviour, so certain movies are not at all good for the eyes of the young. I do not know if you have seen such an effect in your country but working with adolescents this is what I have observed.
"So, the Sufis are all essentially heretics, according to you?"
They are who they are and they may believe in whatever they want, who are we to judge? I believe that I am not perfect so I have to change myself before even thinking of judging others.
Jade
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We all have problems in our native countries. The US has plenty of discrimination and Muslims are one of the targets, but only one, because a certain percentage of Americans are small minded enough to hate just about anyone who isn't them. Jake, I don't know about you, but I hear the term "towel head" just a bit too much and I live in a fairly liberal area of the country. Let's not be blind to the obvious. Which of course leads to, please don't be blind to the fact that terrorist attacks have originated in Pakistan that were aimed at India. Of course, there are plenty attacks against Muslims in India too. What is common to both? These attacks are not supported by 99%+ of the population in either country. Be honest. The average person just wants to live his or her life and wishes extremists would get a new hobby.
And if anyone is really attacking religion here, they're doing an awful job of it. I think we all have different views (I have no religion but was brought up Christian. I believe one can be very spiritual without embracing any religion. Anyone want to convert me? Fat chance. :rotfl ) I can respect your religion and regardless of what anyone thinks, they should be able to tolerate anyone else's religion. What bothers me in this whole thing was mentioned earlier in this thread. Why is it, that we always hear reports of Muslim terrorists etc. but never Jewish terrorism or Christian terrorism and on? A terrorist's religion probably has little relevance as none of these religions teach violence. Once you label someone Muslim, it does create a public perception that we see exhibited in Jake's post. Although Jake was right about some things in his post, he got off track by using the Muslim label, when nutjob extremists would be more appropriate. What does the supposed religion have to do with it? Nothing. These idiots may try to justify themselves with religion but they are not supported by fact or belief. Muslims do not support these people and most Muslims wish the terrorists would go away, as they have made it bad for all. Please don't label terrorists by a religion. It's a joke. They have no religious credibility regardless of what they try to claim.
And while everyone was arguing this nonsense last night, I stayed up until almost 4 am posting several new topics that I came across while learning more about iron measurement. Any chance that we can get back to the topics related to thalassemia?
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Was I fooling myself when I thought that we were a group of people who were above all of this? That we did not care about which country we are from and how our leaders using dirty politics would prefer that we dislike one another?
During the partition in India - friendly neighbours who happily co existing began killing one another. I used to wonder how that could happen, now I know.
I also know that my grandfather hid many muslims in his home during the partition because he remembered that they were his friends and he did not care what religion they were. To this day my family members cross the border to visit these families - and the pakistani families treat our family with such love and respect that I cannot wait to go visit them one day.
I have utmost respect for Islam, Sikhism, Christianity, Judaism, (especially Buddhism - although I am Sikh) - and all others. These are religions intended to make us live good lives and to love and respect one another. Religion is all much bigger than me and above me - how can I ever condemn religion regardless of who practices it? Please guys - let's not go there.
We are here to discuss something that transcends all of our borders - Thalassemia - thalassemia does not care if you are muslim, hindu, sikh, christian - or what country you reside in. If educated people like us can not see above the dirty politics, spreading of hate and propaganda then who will? Obviously we all have allegiance and patriotism toward our own countries - as we should if we want them to be better - however what about our neighbours? How is anyone going to be safe in their homes if they don't learn to feel compassion toward their neighbour - regardless of what our govt's tell us?
I look forward to the day that I can visit both India and Pakistan - and experience the beautiful people and culture. We are all friends - I am not willing to accept a division amongst our friends here. We were able to discuss all of this in a much friendlier way when it first started - let's not move away from that. I have learned a lot from our muslim friends lately, I am accustomed to Western points of view - this has been a real education.
Sharmin
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Andy,
I did see your posts - thank you for finding the valuable information. :thankyou2
Sharmin
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One last word and if you -all- wish let's finish this topic. Allow me that, as I was the one who started it.
On my visits to many Arabic countries, I realised that religion dominates a Muslim's life. Every action, every intention, every perspective in their lives has to be seen and dealt with under the prism of religion. Apart from being a religion, Islam is a way of life. Their way of life. I respect that. This made me compare their way of life and our western way of life and it seemed to me we are lacking in being serious with our lives, always pursuing material things. Religion is left behind in western societies and people who follow it are considered to be picturesque.
And all this comes from a person who is not much attached to religion, who respects though true faith when she sees it.
Lena.
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Lena and others,
I am sorry, but after reading some part of this post - I would like to post. I usually don't post on topics like this - but as this post has somethings which have really offended India - I would like to post for those who don't really know about India. While Poirot has mentioned some part of what I want to say, but I would like to point out.
The most hurting point was someone talking about India being so-called Secularism. I am proud to say the following, which not a lot of people might be aware of
In India, we had a lady born a Catholic (Sonia Gandhi) stepping aside so a Sikh (Manmohan Singh) could be sworn in by a muslim president (Abdul Kalam) to lead a nation that is majority Hindu and the biggest democracy in the world.
Former President Abdul Kalam of India said the following (who by the way is a muslim - which I would not have pointed out but as this post has some harsh comments on India - I would like to point)
In 3000 years of our history people from all over the world have come and invaded us, captured our lands, conquered our minds. From Alexander onwards - The Greeks, the Turks, the Moguls, the Portuguese, the British, the French, the Dutch, all of them came and looted us, took over what was ours. But, we have not done this to any other nation. We have not conquered anyone. We have not grabbed their land, their culture, their history and tried to enforce our way of life on them. - Why? -> "Because, we respect the freedom of others"
So, as most of the people have mentioned - Let's Stop Going off track and use this website for what it is for and let Andy and his team support the thals - they are trying to help.
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Was I fooling myself when I thought that we were a group of people who were above all of this?
\Sharmin
]
Hi Sharmin :hugfriend :hugfriend
Put it mildly yes you were :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl
Basically human-being thinks we are all above "this and that", but when tested, as I have said before we more or less comes with same distingtive trait "we are all the same" It's the nature of the beast.
I was told once there are three things to avoid in discussions, to prevent aggravation, they are as follows
. Religion
.politics
.Money
Kathy
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Kathy,
I guess we were headed for trouble when we covered 2/3 of the 'forbidden' topics - he he he
we can't solve the world's problems but we can have a good laugh - :rotfl
Thanks Kathy,
Sharmin
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Sharmin
Was I fooling myself when I thought that we were a group of people who were above all of this? That we did not care about which country we are from and how our leaders using dirty politics would prefer that we dislike one another?
you were not my dear because at that point everyone in this thread was discussing about pure politics and goverments regimes and many were critisizng their own governments including me.
But when discussion is diverted to critising religions, this is the awful part as Andy had said.
Religion is purly a relation between man and God and no one is allowed to interfere in it. People are free to believe or not to believe but are not free to judge others beliefs and deciding that they are ''silly'' or not.
I am not supposed to defend my religion because i am not supposed to be critised for what i believe in the first place. I have been online daily for more than two and half years and it is the first time for me to read people addressing others by the catholic xyz or the muslim abc, or the sikh efg.. what should this imply. Should i treat someone differently cause i got to know his/her religion. Do we deal with people, manners,emotions or we deal with the title of the religion. Even in books that deal with the comparison of religions ( don't know the exact term for this science, you never read about anyone saying this is better than that, but they just compare the philosophy and essense behind each religion. As Jade said, religion in gereral is like a bunch of rules that you have, some people comply and others don't, that is why it is just a relation between God and man and God only is the one who will say whether you were right or wrong.
Therefore what is needed is complete respect to others thoughts and beliefs. What changed the manner of this thread was that by the end, no respect was there. It is okay to differ but it is important to have respect.
In this site, many times the majority of members wouldn't agree about someone's decision, let's say to transfuse or not, but at the end we all support and respect the decision made so it would be more important that this will be valid on biggar issues.
Through sharing many of our private, personal thoughts and anxiety and even prayers, we have built togather a kind of friendship though most of us didn't meet before. This unique friendship should have avoided hurting one another even if we don't agree about the other's point of view. This what makes the difference and this what is called RESPECT.
Anyway, please let us all remember that each and everyone of us had once prayed for the other when something was wrong or had a stressful situation. Let this prevent you from hurting the other and let this too remind you not to judge ''all'' for ''one''
Finally i would like to thank everyone here who thought of the other before typing on his keyboard and also like to thank Jade and Lena for their correct analytical views that just reveal respect
manal
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Do not confuse religion with tradition. When this whole dicussion came up about muslims and scarfs; my own sweet christian grandmother was wearing one when she left her house. When the discussion kept going on and they say a lot of bad things she let it home. It is almost two years ago she passed away from pancreas cancer, but today I showed her family pictures at a b'day party (because we do not know all the people in the pictures) and there was even one of her when she was 16 and wearing a scarf. :)
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I learn every day new things for all different kind of people and I would like to see that others would have that too
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This weeks has happend something very, very good in my country. We have a politian who is a racist (He is and I know I would be hate for this). For example (his words) 'the Quran is like mein kampf. Netherlands will be overwhelmed (tsunami) by Muslims and many more wich I can not even remember. Oh yes 'we should deport all Muslims'. Btw he is the one with the blond dyed hair.
In summer of 2008 there was a 5 sentences message about him. They reported that he went every week to the ambassade of Israel and I never forgot that report. He is the idiot who made that silly film.
To get to the point: Students of the University of Amsterdam did report the police that they were hurt by his words and that because of his words our population has been split up. I planned to join them, but through all the probs with dad I forgot to do it. (ofcourse I still can do it). The Public prosecutor has said that there was not enough evidence.
So they ask the court to say of there is enough evidence of his saying do cross the frontier of expression of view. They said it did. So there will be a lawsuit.
Sadly, we have family wo think like that. In the past I had friends who thought like they, but I dropped them. It is not worth to try to keep the friendship going and no, i could never convince them. Maybe the future they wil learn not to judge so hard and not to believe everything the media/world says.
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Dore,
You have spoken some real words of wisdom here. We do need to learn for ourselves and not rely on media portrayals of the world. Because of my involvement with thalassemia, I have been to two officially Muslim nations. I was warned by people in my own family that they would try to kill me there. Of course, when you know sweethearts like Akka and Maako, it is very hard to take those warnings seriously and I didn't. What I have found are truly wonderful people and never anyone who wished me harm. I was embraced by Iranian shopkeepers in Dubai. I was made to feel like a native in the Maldives. This is reality but rather than keeping an open mind, many people choose to live in fear of each other and there is no reason it has to be like that. Life is so much better when you are open to the world.
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My Special Thanks to Dore and Lena,
For understanding the situation very wisely :hugfriend
Zaini.
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I was warned by people in my own family that they would try to kill me there.
I totally want that thinking to change. I mean, do they really think that in every muslim country there are armed men roaming on roads looking for someone to kill, beating women etc. Thats awful .... and our own fault i must admit.
What relieves me is that still there are people who think out of the box and try to see beyond. I too would thank Andy, lena and Dore for understanding.
Religion can not make a person good or bad, it comes from the inside and the home and circumstances in which we grow up. And after that its upto us which part of brain we use, thinking, or just seeing and hearing.
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"If a thief is muslim, it does mean that Islam preaches robbery."
Sorry in the last post I missed the word "not", I meant to say:
If a thief is muslim, it does not mean that Islam preaches robbery.
Sorry for the mistake.
Thank u Manal, I hoped I have cleared certain misconceptions a bit.
Jade
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Peace, guys. Looks like my comment touched a nerve with some of you folks.
I will not apologise for my comments, but I will provide the background for them:
I am an Atheist, have been so since the age of 12-14 years. I realise that most of you on this group would be unaware of this fact and hence my comments would seem to be hurting one religion, Islam, in this case.
Let me say this - I "make fun" of all religions, including and especially my birth religion, Sanatana Dharma (more widely known as hinduism). My wife gets very annoyed with me at times, because she says I am constantly taking pot shots at the Church, and she is a RC christian. But then, she sees me do the same thing with my mom, and her hindu prayers and practices. So, no one is exempt!!!
I realise that some of you take your religion very seriously - but, so do I, just from a different perspective. If you post prayers here, should I not have the same right to post my criticisms? Just some food for thought ....... However, I will not post any more critical remarks about religion here, I have plenty of other forums!
BTW, how about those new atheist buses in London?!! Anyone here who is in London, do take a ride for me on one of those buses. I will even send you the bus fare!
Cheers and with no malice to anyone here,
Poirot
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Peace, guys. Looks like my comment touched a nerve with some of you folks.
I will not apologise for my comments, but I will provide the background for them:
I am an Atheist, have been so since the age of 12-14 years. I realise that most of you on this group would be unaware of this fact and hence my comments would seem to be hurting one religion, Islam, in this case.
Let me say this - I "make fun" of all religions, including and especially my birth religion, Sanatana Dharma (more widely known as hinduism). My wife gets very annoyed with me at times, because she says I am constantly taking pot shots at the Church, and she is a RC christian. But then, she sees me do the same thing with my mom, and her hindu prayers and practices. So, no one is exempt!!!
I realise that some of you take your religion very seriously - but, so do I, just from a different perspective. If you post prayers here, should I not have the same right to post my criticisms? Just some food for thought ....... However, I will not post any more critical remarks about religion here, I have plenty of other forums!
BTW, how about those new atheist buses in London?!! Anyone here who is in London, do take a ride for me on one of those buses. I will even send you the bus fare!
Cheers and with no malice to anyone here,
Poirot
Same here, but I became interested in those stories. Yes, I have heard from and I saw this buses at the news. It is a good initaitive. I mean you must hear all arguments so long as they do not heard people to hard and I do not think they do that with those buses. You need to find someone else, because I live on the other side of the water. I never been in London and it is actually very close.
We do not have to agree with every human. We only must try to understand each human.
Dore
P.S. I read your previous posts "I truly envy Europe with its "post-religious" thinking."
Europe is changing. In my opinion people are going back to the churches. I believe that is the situation in the Netherlands. Poland, Romania and probably more people of the East are pretty religious. These are my opinions so the situation may be different. But this is what is happening in my environment.
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Thanks, Dore, for your comments.
Read this article if you are inclined towards physics - it will really, really blow your mind:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html?full=true
Cheers
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Peace, guys. Looks like my comment touched a nerve with some of you folks.
I will not apologise for my comments, but I will provide the background for them:
I am an Atheist, have been so since the age of 12-14 years. I realise that most of you on this group would be unaware of this fact and hence my comments would seem to be hurting one religion, Islam, in this case.
Let me say this - I "make fun" of all religions, including and especially my birth religion, Sanatana Dharma (more widely known as hinduism). My wife gets very annoyed with me at times, because she says I am constantly taking pot shots at the Church, and she is a RC christian. But then, she sees me do the same thing with my mom, and her hindu prayers and practices. So, no one is exempt!!!
I realise that some of you take your religion very seriously - but, so do I, just from a different perspective. If you post prayers here, should I not have the same right to post my criticisms? Just some food for thought ....... However, I will not post any more critical remarks about religion here, I have plenty of other forums!
BTW, how about those new atheist buses in London?!! Anyone here who is in London, do take a ride for me on one of those buses. I will even send you the bus fare!
Cheers and with no malice to anyone here,
Poirot
Looks like you are very proud that you make fun of other religions and not apologise for that. Shame is a virtue only good one feels.
Andy,
I request if you please close this thread.
Thanks.
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That's a very interesting article. I will share it with my father.
As for the busses: There is such busses war going on in Spain at the moment. What one can fight about?
The Dutch busses organisation has this type of advertisment still in considering.
I also want to make clear that I did not say anything bad or I did not want that one feels it like that. We should not hurt one other feelings, but express our opinion in a fresh way.
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Yesterday they said this on the news: "This were the first serious accidents since the offensive". I never heard anything of the not so serious accidents. I dunno who started or not, but this morning i saw - without warning - a very shocking video on the news. They never wanted to so us those terrible vids of ghaza, but now i saw how they blast israeli soldiers. :(
I like the idea of Obama, but why do they not talk with Hamas? In that way you will never have a chance to stop those "accidents".
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Andy,
I request if you please close this thread.
yeah :agree Andy , i want say this as well , lock this thread or tell all people to not post anything out of topic ...this post were started for Palestine and Israel's tension . it not feel good when people make fun of any religion . we r not here to make fun of each other's religion .. religion is someting like personal ... sooo we should avoid that ... please close this thread or tell all the particpant to not post out of topic ..... we r not here to fight each other ... Thank you
Umair
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STOP STOP STOP :mouthshut :mouthshut :mouthshut
PALASTINIAN HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEM WE ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT,,, IT'S BIGER THAN US (THE PROBLEM ) SO LET THEM SOLVE THE PROBLEM WITH OTHER GOVERMENTS ALL OVER THE WORLD WHO WANT TO STAY IN PEACE SOOOOOOOOOO P L E A S E STOP AND :stopmad :stop :referee AND :welcome2 ......
KHALIFA
STATE OF KUWAIT
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OK. I agree. If the topic strays from Gaza again, I will lock this thread.