Thalassemia Patients and Friends
Miscellaneous Forums => Older Chatter => Topic started by: AstonDialo on August 11, 2006, 12:45:58 PM
-
Led Zeppelin - Kashmir
-------
Whoa, let the sun beat down upon my face
with stars to fill my dream
I am a traveller of both time and space to be where I have been
Sit with elders of a gentle race this world has seldom seen
who talk of days for which they sit in wait
All will be revealed
Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace
Sounds caress my ear
Though not a word I heard could I relate
the story was quite clear, whoa-oh-hoh, whoa-oh, whoa-oh
Oooh, oh, baby, I've been flyin' low, yeah
A-mama, there ain't no denyin'
Oh, oooh yes, I've been flyin'
Mama, ain't no denyin', no denyin', no
Oh, all I see turns to brown as the sun burns the ground
and my eyes fill with sand as I scan this wasted land
Tryin' to find, tryin' to find where I've been, ah-ah, ah-ah
Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace
like thoughts inside a dream
who hid the path that led me to that place
with yellow desert screen
My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon, I will return again
sure as the dust that blows high in June
when movin' through Kashmir
Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails
'cross the sea of years
with no provision but an open face along the straits of fear
Whoa-oh, whoa-oh, whoa-oh-hoh, oh, ohh
Wha, when I'm on, when I'm on my way, yeah
When I see, when I see the way you stay, yeah-eah
Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well, I'm down, oh
Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well, I'm down, so down
Ooh, my baby, ooh, my baby, let me take you there
Oh, oh, come on, come on, oh, let me take you there
Let me take you there, woo, yeah-yeah, woo, yeah-yeah
Let me take you there, let me take you there
-
And, your or Led's point being????
:rotfl
Poirot
-
Do I bite my tongue or do I just bite the bullet?
So what's your point?
I'm not here to argue, I'm just minding my own business, trying to post a song.
Is that ok with you?
If you're not aware, I have been known to post songs in the past, from the MSN groups and thal forum.
The songs that I post say what I'm thinking or feeling at the time.
Are you the new moderator?
I'm sorry If you didn't like the song.
I'll try selecting a better song next time, just to please you.
(I'll even dedicate my next song to you and I'll even highlight your name on it.)
But then again, how do you please someone who wouldn't know a good song if it hit them on their head?
Are you trying to say that I can't post what I'm listening to or at least what I'm feeling?
I've had a rough week, and I'm not in the mood for criticism.
I just posted this great song to share it with you all.
Just let you know that it was me that posted Linkin Park - Crawlin'..Because you haven't criticised that one yet.
If you're gonna go out of your way to criticise, make it consistent at least.
So why only reply to this post?
Both songs had their own subject
I don't get it though..Almost all your replies to my posts have been negative.
You must like putting people down.
AD
-
Hey Poirot you just can't blame anyone for the wrong doing of someone else. The recent remarks of Viz and you in the bombing thread reflect the same thing but I didn't reply to it as I promised Andy that I won't post on that thread anymore since you were pi$$ed off about the bombings. But you just don't know when to quit hurting other peoples' feelings.
When will you understand that these terrorists are not Muslims and they don't deserve to be called Muslims. The word Muslim is derived from the word Islam which means peace and thus Muslim is one from whom everyone remains in peace. These terrorists are not following the teachings of the Holy Prophet and The Holy Quran and it is a simple rule: "One who does not follow the teachings of the Holy Prophet and The Holy Quran is not a Muslim"
You can't just blame Muslims/Pakistanis for the ill doing of a particular group that have nothing to do with Islam.
I will have to ask you to stop making offensive remarks to everyone.
-
Do I bite my tongue or do I just bite the bullet?
So what's your point?
I'm not here to argue, I'm just minding my own business, trying to post a song.
Is that ok with you?
Oooops, I am very sorry, AD ..... I was not razzing you or puting you down or anything like that ....... I just found the song to be funny .... sandy storms in Kashmir?? ..... So, I was just wondering whether the song was meant to be a travelogue or a love song or what? :biggrin Please forgive me if I insulted your song.
And, I don't remember putting you down at any other time, too .......
I guess humour does not always come through on these posts. My bad.
Poirot
-
whoot another post! Did someone call me my ears are burning
-
The recent remarks of Viz and you in the bombing thread reflect the same thing but I didn't reply to it as I promised Andy that I won't post on that thread anymore since you were pi$$ed off about the bombings.
Since you posted anyway, despite Andy's injunctions, you should have had the integrity of posting in the correct thread instead of calling me names in another.
-
I said "In that thread" meaning relating to that particular incident of the trains. While now I am referring to comments of Vazirani and your support to his comments.
Vazirani,
You should better know that the story was pretty much the same on both sides during the partition. In fact it was worse for us as the Sikhs and Hindus united to kill off any remaining Muslims. My grand parents were lucky enough to escape alive from their mansion being raided in Amritsir and flee to Pakistan, but arriving here they had to greet the trains filled with dead immigrants including their relatives.
As for the present, we have our share of violence from across the border to destabilize our country; such as killing of priests, targeting minorities' Churches/shrines and bombings in Sunni - Shia gatherings to erupt sectarian violence.
You will never hear about the death tolls in Pakistani Kashmir as they are living peacefully while on the other hand in the Indian Occupied Kashmir there is daily news of numbers of innocent people killed by BSF in their mask of killing so called "freedom fighters".
This is my reply to your posts as you have offended me I will not sit quietly letting you ramble against my Religion and Country. And now: enough said! you guys. This is a Thalassemia support forum; not "Hate Thy neighbour" forum. So think twice before posting stuff that will offend someone.
-
from one of your leading dailies
"Pakistan: We helped foil UK terror plot"
Thats so delusional!
Forget religion anyway when is your failed state gonna become "Republic of Pakistan"
That will take care of terrorists dont you think?
-
I don't think you'll find many people in Kashmir that want India or Pakistan controlling their country.
And as far as governments, none of us have anything to brag about....we the people just aren't being considered by politicians anywhere.
-
I don't think you'll find many people in Kashmir that want India or Pakistan controlling their country.
Since you are commenting on this, let me set the facts right, at least. The whole of Kashmir can be divided into four areas: The northern areas, the valley of Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh. The northern areas are technically under the control of Pakistan, but really run by "independent" Pashtun tribals (kinsmen to the Taliban). India controls about 75% of the Kashmir valley (25% controlled by Pakistan), 100% of the Jammu region, and 75% of the Ladakh region (25% controlled by China, bet you didn't know that).
Now, if you ask anyone in Jammu and Ladakh, they don't want to be "independent", they are happy to be part of India. You are probably right, as far as the valley of Kashmir goes but a lot of it is due to pressure from the terrorists and the pain they have suffered from Indian forces, too. If you remove the terrorists, you may come up with a different answer altogether, for all we know.
And, I am not just saying this for the heck of it. If you are not aware, Andy, we went through this cycle once before in the state of Punjab, when it seemed like the majority of the residents wanted an independent state, Khalistan. That demand vanished the moment the militants were defeated by police action. Today, Punjab is once again peaceful and prosperous. And, I remember that even the militants of Punjab used to get help from a friendly neighbour.
So, you will excuse me if we do not give up on the kashmiris, yet. Actually, the genesis of the problem of Kashmir is interesting: When Kashmir decided to accede to India, it posed an existential crisis for Pakistan. The reason being how could a majority muslim state decide to join secular, kaffir India? Then, of course, India did its part to screw up the state with rigged elections and imprisoning Sheikh Abduallah and other brain-dead activities.
For anyone really interested in the story of Kashmir, I would recommend reading the book, "Kashmir: Beyond the vale" by M J Akbar.
PS: The govt of Pakistan has put the head of Lashkar-e-Toiba, Sayed, under house arrest this week. I find this ironic for two reasons: first, the govt of Pakistan has always denied that this "gentleman" was in their territory, whenever India asked for his extradition, second, this is in response to the UK arrests this week.
And as far as governments, none of us have anything to brag about....we the people just aren't being considered by politicians anywhere.
At last something we agree on ....... :biggrin
-
Hey all,
I for one enjoy when Aston posts songs - it's a nice change from everything else, and being a songwriter, I know how important music is to some people. This particular song was probably written at least 2 decades ago, and was I would guess, a dream-like song probably written when the writer was in an altered state. It's a great song. I don't think it had much to do with politics, but correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe there's something I don't know about it. Keep posting songs, Aston, because that is important to you, and some of us enjoy it. :whistle
I don't know that much about the politics going on, but Sajid's point rings true - you just can't condemn a whole group of people because of radical, violent factions. I'm so sorry for any people who suffer from the hands of violence, and I am greatly disturbed by those who use religion as a way to justifly violence. I think many of us can agree on those points.
In our own little thalassemia world, I plan to keep spreading around the love, peace, and support that I know is good for all of us. Jean :love
-
Ahhh.... Jean,
Finally I hear someone agreeing that we should not blame everyone of a particular region/religion for the acts of a handful of people.
Thank you very much Jean.
Peace,
-
Do politics have to be brought up in every thread? :(
Let's keep the peace around here, ok? Pretty please? :flirt
-
Forget religion anyway when is your failed state gonna become "Republic of Pakistan"
Well, your politicians are no Angels themselves! :talktothehand
-
Do politics have to be brought up in every thread? :(
Let's keep the peace around here, ok? Pretty please? :flirt
Ma'am tell that to Mr. Poirot and Vazirani who started it all.
-
And as far as governments, none of us have anything to brag about....we the people just aren't being considered by politicians anywhere.
At last something we agree on .......
WOW Poirot. Somebody finally said something you agree to. Must be a historic day!
:rotfl
-
Ma'am tell that to Mr. Poirot and Vazirani who started it all.
I wasn't directing that to anyone in particular, Sajid. It doesn't matter who started it. If someone starts it, and someone else replies in a derogatory manner, both parties are guilty, in my opinion. :dunno
I just want everyone to get along. If you guys aren't capable of getting along, then just simply don't talk to one another. There's no point in going back and forth. Just agree to disagree and end it. :now
:rotfl (that little guy banging his fist made me laugh :biggrin)
-
It applies to all. Kinda getting tired of hearing he started it or she started it. We're supposedly adults here. If you make a statement, stand by it. Don't go blaming someone else for it. And this applies to everyone.
Once again, can I remind people that I doubt we have any terrorists or supporters of terrorism on our board. The violence everywhere in the world is extremely alarming. Is there some reason we need to foment hatred on our board? If anyone can say yes, then you don't belong here.
-
WOW Poirot. Somebody finally said something you agree to. Must be a historic day!
:rotfl
Given that I had to drag you screaming and kicking to this point, you bet it is a historical day!!!
:rotfl
-
Once again, can I remind people that I doubt we have any terrorists or supporters of terrorism on our board.
Absolutely correct. So, there is no reason for anyone to become defensive, right? :rotfl
Hmmmm ......
-
So, there is no reason for anyone to become defensive, right?
You would think so. On any of the many sides of some of these issues. One thing I don't think anyone will dispute is that Britain certainly left a mess of a legacy in that area of the world. Almost seems as though it was intentional...did I say almost? Hmmm...reminds of another world hot spot...the mideast.
Wait, I think we did agree before; on the harm that religions have done to this world. Sad thing is, it's not getting any better.
-
One thing I don't think anyone will dispute is that Britain certainly left a mess of a legacy in that area of the world. Almost seems as though it was intentional...did I say almost?
The three most intractable regional problems in the world:
1. Northern Ireland
2. Kashmir
3. Palestine/Israel
The common factor among all three: The English!!!! You can almost see the design.
BTW, not the British, but the English!!! I don't think the poor Scots or Welsh caused even a fraction of the trouble the English caused!!!!
No wonder, the scots decided to get their own parliament!!
-
Wait, I think we did agree before; on the harm that religions have done to this world. Sad thing is, it's not getting any better.
Yes, you have to wonder when humanity will see through organised religions. Karl Marx was right about one thing, at least!
It is ironic in a way, that after the collapse of "godless" communist USSR, all the major global conflicts have had religion as their cause.
-
It doesn't matter who started it. If someone starts it, and someone else replies in a derogatory manner, both parties are guilty, in my opinion. :dunno
A Daniel(le) come to judgement!!! Prithee do tell, o danielle, how come thee be so young in years, yet so steeped in wisdom.
:rotfl
-
A Daniel(le) come to judgement!!! Prithee do tell, o danielle, how come thee be so young in years, yet so steeped in wisdom.
:rotfl
Are you making fun of me, Mister? :waiting
:rotfl :wink
-
Are you making fun of me, Mister? :waiting
Do you think I would even dare to take such liberties with you? After all, we now know you shoot from the hip ......... :rotfl
Heh
Poirot
-
I know this is not really relevant to Thal, but it is relevant to the world we live in today, in general, and sometimes our lives, in particular. I debated about this a lot before posting (with myself and a few friends), but in the end thought it important enough to put my thoughts to paper (or html, as the case may be!), given the current strife that we are living through. This is not to take pot shots at anyone or any group, but just to provide some food for thought to those who are interested. This may not be the absolutely right forum for this post, but we have discussed this before and I thought it was an appropriate continuation.
And, Sajid, although I am using your post as a starting off point, this is not a criticism of you and your beliefs, in any way. I sincerely mean that.
When will you understand that these terrorists are not Muslims and they don't deserve to be called Muslims. The word Muslim is derived from the word Islam which means peace and thus Muslim is one from whom everyone remains in peace. These terrorists are not following the teachings of the Holy Prophet and The Holy Quran and it is a simple rule: "One who does not follow the teachings of the Holy Prophet and The Holy Quran is not a Muslim"
You can't just blame Muslims/Pakistanis for the ill doing of a particular group that have nothing to do with Islam.
Sajid makes a very valid point above, that in the current environment we run the risk of tarring an entire group for the acitivity of a few deluded individuals. It also takes a lot of courage to make the above point, when these highly visible individuals are saying it with bombs and guns. So, major hat tip to Sajid for that.
But, if I look at what is happening globally .... I only hear aggressive, threatening statements from "Islamic" groups (Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda, Jaish, Lashkar, etc) or governments (Iran, Syria) being broadcast both by global and Arabic media. Countries with belief systems different to these groups are threatened, literally, on a daily basis. What I don't hear is the moderate voice. I don't hear moderate Islamic countries and groups stand up to these groups and say .... ENOUGH. Maybe they condemn the terror but their voices are being drowned out by the fringe elements. Or maybe, their efforts are disjointed. Or, maybe they are just too scared to protest. Or maybe, heart of hearts, they believe in the radical cause.
Whatever be the cause, if the moderate groups (who I believe are still the majority today) don't stand up to the radicals, then that IS bad news for the entire community, because then the entire community risks being tarred by the same brush. And, this rebuttal has to happen at an institutional level. Because it is the radical institutions that are causing the mayhem, moderate institutions have to stand up to them, or risk being taken over by the radicals. And, once the moderate institutions are taken over, then all moderate voices eventually get stilled.
This has happened once before, in recent history, with dramatic consequences for a significant number of people - the rise of Adolf Hitler and WWII. One by one (between 1930-1938), German institutions capitulated to the rising power of Hitler and the Nazis. They could have stopped him at multiple points, but did not, either due to fear, intoxication from his vision or his sloth. Until, he ruled all of Germany, until finally there was no Germany, but a Nazi one. At the same time, people like Chamberlain treated his rise with tolerance, and sanctioned many of his pre-WWII conquests in a bid to keep peace. Chamberlain did this when Germany had not fully rearmed and could have been stopped easily. Everyone knows the fall out.
But, there are two consequences I would highlight: the German people carried a sense of shame for the Nazi atrocities for many decades (even today, gatherings at the Berlin Stadium were compared to the Nazi marches) and the English people were destituted (because the cost of beating Germany later was too high) for their earlier inaction.
I post this today because I see stunning parallels betwen what happened in 1930-38 and today. This is a huge challenge for the Islamic community globally in how they deal with their radicals. It is a huge challenge for the global comity of nations and the lone superpower, too, in how we deal with this situation (hint: invading Iraq is not the answer!).
We, in India, live directly on one of the fault lines, so this is of paramount importance to me. I apologise if I have bored the pants off everyone else.
Poirot
-
Hi Piorot
Fantastic analysis and a equally fantastic peice of writing and so very correct.
I love it and is making me see things, which I might not have noticed.. do keep the mind and pen flowing . :smile2
shikha
-
I had resented myself so many times not to involve, Can we somehow stop these hate messages from Mr. Poirot (sometimes sugarcoated though).
-
Poirot,
Yes, this is not relevant to thal and comes off far more like an audition for a right wing US radio show than anything that belongs in a forum about thalassemia. The internet is loaded with such forums and once again I will ask that people who want to vent their politics, to please use those forums. It is easy to shoot fish in a barrel, Poirot, as this group is mostly not equipped to argue the pros and cons of your statements, but please be advised that I am, and that this right wing clap trap that you are spouting is so full of holes that I'm surprised you haven't been offered a job in the Bush White House. I must say that at least you refrained from using the term Islamic Fascists, that Mr Bush so proudly sputters, but your comparison of Islamic fundamentalism to Nazi Germany is incredibly offensive to muslims everywhere. If any country on earth is to be accused of global expansionism, it would unfortunately be my own beloved USA. With troops in well over 100 countries around the globe and the constant manipulation of elections and governmments throughout the world, the US is surely the only country that can fit the bill. With a "defense" budget more than the defense budgets of the rest of the world combined, I see my own country as the major threat to freedom around the world. When I see my own country refusing to recognize fairly elected governments because it doesn't agree with their politics and backing the completely unjustified invasions of Lebanon and Gaza as the world watches in horror, in attempts to unseat the democratically elected Palestinian government and also to remove the elected presence of Hizbollah in Lebanon, thereby totally destabilizing the elected pro-west government, I don't see anything that can be defended, and I see full well why the governments in countries like Syria and Iran, that are threatened on a daily basis by US government officials would issue the so called "threatening statements.
I have been a guest in two muslim countries and for the most part have found the people to be far friendlier and less judgemental than westerners. Many of these people belong to this group and I must say I am flabbergasted at this continuing insulting diatribe that never seems to end. Take a hint from Sajid, please. Stop insulting people because of your own biased views of the world. This may be the thing to do all over the internet but I can see no reason why this subtle, "sugar coated" fomenting of hatred belongs in our group.
And one word on what for some unknown reason became a political thread after AD posted a classic Led Zeppelin song. Poirot, when India holds the long promised referendum on Kashmir and the Kashmiris themselves choose to remain part of India, then I will accept your analysis of the situation there. Until these disenfranchised people are given the right to self determination I will remain a skeptic.
From http://www.nancho.net/fdlap/kashmir/jkstates.html
...a referendum on and in Kashmir, internationally supervised, will again put India in a different league from one defined by sub-continental squabbles - ... The "worst" possibility is that Kashmir may not choose to remain with India. Is that too bad a prospect compared to the price India pays in blood, money, and a general marring of reputation when the troops "occasionally" misbehave. A Kashmir referendum will also blunt global condemnation of the sub-continent as a mad hatter area full of nuke-wielding hot-heads. As well as force Pakistan to drop its belligerence, both verbal and clandestine. These are benefits that can be grabbed only by a government with vision and courage.
I would say that if a referendum were to result in Kashmir continuing as a part of India, it would deflate the terrorist argument completely. If India is so sure the Kashmiris wish to remain part of India, then a referendum should become a top priority. If not, then India must look itself square in the mirror and ask why they are refusing the basic right of self determination to the Kashmiris. Until you accept that even the Kashmiris have this basic right, your argument will hold no water.
And to everyone; until we stop allowing self serving politicians and media to manipulate us and our beliefs, democracy will be nothing more than a false dream.
-
Ok, Andy, no more political posts from me on this forum. I will take my political musings to a different blog. Although, I must say that I was REALLY surprised to find the post being characterised as offensive. I thought I was very balanced in my views. And, I am far from your "right wing", and closer to your centre, I would think. :biggrin
One final comment on the following:
Poirot, when India holds the long promised referendum on Kashmir and the Kashmiris themselves choose to remain part of India, then I will accept your analysis of the situation there. Until these disenfranchised people are given the right to self determination I will remain a skeptic.
From http://www.nancho.net/fdlap/kashmir/jkstates.html
I would say that if a referendum were to result in Kashmir continuing as a part of India, it would deflate the terrorist argument completely. If India is so sure the Kashmiris wish to remain part of India, then a referendum should become a top priority.
India agreed to a referendum in Kashmir in 1948, because Prime Minister Nehru thought it would be the right thing to do. Something, I fully agree with. But, to hold the referendum today, you have to revert Kashmir to the state that it was in 1948. Today:
1. Kashmiri Pandits (30% of the population) have been driven out of the state in waves of ethnic cleansing by the militants.
2. Pakistan holds about 30% of Kashmir
3. Of the 30%, Pashtun tribals (linked to Afghanistan Talibs) control 60% (the northern areas)
So, how do you propose to hold a free and fair referendum? I believe this is no longer even an option in the peace talks between India and Pakistan.
BTW, the "disenfranchised" people of Indian Kashmir elected their own govt two years back in a free and fair election. The govt consists of ex-militants too, who decided to contest the elections and other past pro-freedom parties. This new govt has been investing in infrastructure, with the help of Delhi. And, the tourists are flowing back. In fact, when six tourists were killed by grenade attacks on 11 July this year, all the tourist agencies held a big march in Srinagar in protest against the militants. If left to their own devices, I think Kashmiris are okay with their new govt. It is also up to Delhi not to screw it up again, as they have done so often in the past.
That was just to let you the know the ground realities.
Cheers
Poirot
PS: Here are some articles on Kashmiri terrorist training camps from a PAKISTANI magazine Herald (part of Dawn group of newspapers), which was carried in an Indian paper, for people wanting to know about the "indigenous" struggle of the Kashmiris.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10978.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10982.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/10980.html
-
:smile2 Well put Andy! :clap
This is how a moderator on this site should really be! But I'm afraid this thread will never end until everyone agrees with you and go to other forums to vent out their steam. Maybe you can enforce that by locking such threads that have conflict and no relation to medical issues which can be helpful for everyone on this site.
:hmm I wonder if this had to do something with the fact that Danielle had left us boys alone for a while
-
Stop insulting people because of your own biased views of the world.
Bias, like beauty, is always in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder!!!
Hmmmm, how do we deal with the moderator's bias, then?
:rotfl
Poirot
-
Ahem, Can I say something Andy & Poirot?
Lets not just blame the English for all the woes that plaque those conquered/captured countries.
The CIA has been bed fellows with the Taliban/Al-Quaida much before 9/11 happened. Pakistan of course to please its masters have been equally to be blamed for the mis-adventure.
Andy as far as Kashmir is concerned let me tell you that his Highness the self aointed President Pervez Musharaf doesnt want freedom for Kashmir he wants so called freedom for "Jammu & Kashmir". His words on TV not mine. Secondly I am surprised on how could a "democratic country" like Pakistan promise freedom when its own people have none. FYI, Cut the crap on the referendum on Kashmir, its just to mess with the politicos in America, I speak on behalf of every Indian who is a Hindu, we will never give Jammu away you do not know the significance this region has for Hindus to try take it from our hands would be quivalent to giving Washington DC with the White House to Osama Bin Laden. Go ahead make my day...
As much as USA might not know about other countries like ours we do know a great deal about your countries history. My dear friends let me tell you a story that I tell my proud Indian countrymen about a President by the Name of Abrahim Lincolin.
He had an important question in front of him a similar question that Jinah put in front of our great Mahtama Gandhi.
The question "Would you rather parition your country or fight a civil war" and I quote Mr. Lincoln "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free..."
50 years have passed, the US had a civil war and the wusses in India went for partition, we both know how the story ends. One with a free country the other with a monkey on its back. We will get rid of the monkey just how long our patience will last with the US is the moot question.
Ahh we are again repeating history arent we, US did this in Afganistan now it will use Pakistan and when the condom is used the US will throw it away just like Afganistan.
and to the people who wish to have locked threads, nah it doesnt work new threads come up.
-
I like to point out that Mr. Vizarani and Mr. Poirot are teaming up supporting each other views to extend their own political thoughts, using analogies to Condoms and Nazism and are involved in the conduct not suitable for a civilised forum. I also noted that Mr. Vizarani is willing to keep going on and not getting the message.
This forum was never meant to disgrace any religion, culture or race and I am surprised since when it is a norm to conduct in such behaviour.
I register my protest in the strongest terms.
-
Vazirani's ramblings are almost comical. Now Kashmir is the equal of Washington DC? Sorry, but Washinton DC is the capitol of the US and not some annexed territory.
Canadian Family, these guys don't get it. They don't understand how they are insulting anyone with their ongoing tag team bashing of muslims. I will invite all muslims to speak up and tell us what is so offensive about their statements.
This Indian nationalism may sound good to jingoists but it is the foundation for many more years of strife.
-
Andy
I dont think anyone is out to get each other or insult each other.. these are the world facts for every intelligent people to see and understand... More over this is an open forum in the General category.. called General Chatter.Yes we are here to support each other on Medical issues.. but for that you have other discussion headings. Then why keep this category at all?
Moreoever,we here are all intelligent , educated inviduals who can surely take part in the world happenings and appreciate any healthy discussions. Where were the objectionable sentences in Pirots or Ashish's postings.???.I didnt find any.. infact I thought it was really thought provoking.
Infact all young people of any country should realise where all the trouble is stemming from and not just be biased .
Why does everyone take this so personally?
Shikha
-
If you can't see how comparing muslims to nazi Germany is offensive I don't know what else I can say. I'll throw this one to Sajid and ask him to eloquently explain why all this anti muslim talk is so offensive, since what Canadian Family said has been ignored. Sajid, feel free to say whatever you like in this thread. I cannot even begin to express what a muslim would feel about this.
What don't you get about what they said? I'm not muslim and I easily see how offensive this whole thread has gotten.
I like to point out that Mr. Vizarani and Mr. Poirot are teaming up supporting each other views to extend their own political thoughts, using analogies to Condoms and Nazism and are involved in the conduct not suitable for a civilised forum. I also noted that Mr. Vizarani is willing to keep going on and not getting the message.
This forum was never meant to disgrace any religion, culture or race and I am surprised since when it is a norm to conduct in such behaviour.
-
Vazirani's ramblings are almost comical. Now Kashmir is the equal of Washington DC? Sorry, but Washinton DC is the capitol of the US and not some annexed territory.
Yes isnt it comical, that I should compare Washington DC to Kashmir, however would you give it is the question I am asking? When your country cannot allow a single square inch of its territory to be occurpied by someone other than an American then why is it that everyone else tells the Indians to get out of Kashmir?
FYI, India gave Hindu Dominated Sindh Province in exchange for a pre-dominantly Muslim region of Kashmir. Now your telling me that the acession is also a dispute, why am I not surprised?
Every war Pakistan has had with India they have lost, but as I mentioned Indians being wusses always lost more. Even though Poirot may not agree with what I say now but I found the Pakistanis to be far better adapted at this game then we are. They have had 3 official wars and 1 incursion still they get out of it better than any other country. I bet each military man still itches like to have a go at India again.
Although I am not a fan of George Bush but I do admire him at least he has the balls to say to the world "Your with us or against us" If we had a man in office like him I will bet you anything that no one would eye kashmir or maybe not considering that Osama continues to try to get people into your country.
I still remember the Pervez Mushraff on TV on 9/11 when he made a statement condeming the act, fully realising that he was in deep shit. I bet his wife still cant get the skid marks out of those military pants of his.
Comical, hehe .... yeeeah
-
Hi everyone.
I believe that if the head of states spent less on amunition and defence forces and more on health and research.
We all would be better off.(some will call me naive ,still I'm entitle to my point view) (LOL)
I also believe that on this website, like everywhere else, we would never come to a consensus on this subject[/b In which case lets agree to disagree :hug
I found it all to be really sad because none is the wiser and in the midst of it all civillians always pay the deviden with thier lives, such a shame.Having said that,as long as there are wars we are all in the same boat sailling to nowhere.
regards Kathy
-
Ashish,
If you said someone was trying to cut Delhi out of India it would make a much better comparison than saying Kashmir, which is an annexed area that has never been given the opportunity determine their own future.
I found a nice article on this subject of Kashmir at http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/20030208.htm
This ... lunacy can be multiplied a hundred times to get an idea of the kind of damage this mindless hostility is inflicting on millions of people in South Asia. The entire region is hostage to the unending Kashmir dispute with trade and travel at a virtual standstill. The current state of affairs is enough to make any rational and reasonable person despair.
Of course, we know that there are powerful elements in both countries who want nothing better than for the status quo to remain unchanged: the defence, intelligence and foreign office establishments in India and Pakistan thrive on confrontation. Their budgets are bloated beyond the capacity of both poverty-stricken nations, and yet year after year, the generals and the spooks get whatever they want, plus a few extras...In Pakistan where the political class is basically an appendage of the army, not a single question raised about military expenditure. As a matter of fact, no details about the defence budget are provided to the public or its representatives.
Even in India with its mature democracy and seasoned politicians, the defence budget is a sacred cow, and the government of the day falls over its own feet in its indecent haste to give the generals, the air marshals and the admirals whatever new toys they want...It would be pointless to go over the tired arguments that have been repeated ad nauseam from both sides of the great divide. However, as all the citizens of India and Pakistan have been made parties to the dispute by their incompetent leaders, perhaps it is high time to ask them how they feel about Kashmir. So maybe a referendum in both countries is the way forward with New Delhi and Islamabad agreeing to abide by the wishes of the majority. The referendum would be supervised by the UN, and a single question would be put to all adult citizens in India and Pakistan:
"Is Kashmir more important than jobs, education, roads, electricity and medical care for you and your family?" If the majority says 'no', then both governments should withdraw their forces from the parts of Kashmir they control and allow the Kashmiris to decide their own destiny without interference from India or Pakistan.
Yes, the US is by far the worst offender when it comes to bloated military budgets, but why do we allow this? Fear. Read some of these posts and the whole backbone of them is fear. For God's sake people, wake up! Kathy's post makes excellent sense. Think about the problems that could be solved with the money that is wasted on military budgets. Yet, here we have people blindly saying rah, rah, let's kick their butts! As long as people allow themselves to be so easily manipulated by politicians and generals there will be no hope for change. It begins within and as long as you are saying we should kick anyone's butt, YOU are part of the problem! When you change your own beliefs and attitude and stop worshipping war as a solution then maybe the world can evolve and humanity can take care of itself and the earth.
-
If you can't see how comparing muslims to nazi Germany is offensive I don't know what else I can say.
You drag my quotes out of context, Andy. Substituting part for the whole is not a good idea.
I was comparing the Islamic militants and radicals (and NOT all muslims or the community) to the Nazis, if you take care to read my post carefully and not jump to conclusions. If Canadian can actually point out what offends them, then I can redress the point.
Are you saying that I am not even allowed to question the extremists, irrespective of whatever they may do or say?
Poirot
-
Well Andy you asked me ,
This entire thread is pretty much offensive to Muslims. First lets discuss Kashmir.
Kashmir is a delicate issue. During the British rule, this territory was sold for 7.5 million rupees (app US$166 at that time) to a Sikh Gulab Singh. Tell me how would an entire Muslim nation feel if it was agreed initially at the time of partition of South Asian Subcontinent that all Muslim majority areas will become Pakistan but Gulab Singh fled to India and asked for the armed forces to take over the Muslim majority Kashmir. Ever since Indians ramble that Kashmir is "Their" property.
The fate of millions of people can't just be sold or taken over!
Next lets discuss hatred towards the Muslims.
Before the British rule, the Subcontinent was ruled by Muslim Kings known as the Mughals. It is quite likely that being ruled by them for hundreds of years, the Hindus developed a sort of jealousy and at the time of departure of the British, the Hindus tried their level best to prevent the partition and requested the transfer of entire rule to the majority Hindus. Of course that couldn't happen since Muslim and Hindu lifestyle and religion is poles apart and couldn't coexist (which was the main reason of the fall of the Mughal empire as the Hindus acted as a Hippocrates and led in the invasion of the British). Now even with Pakistan in existence, the Hindus still have the same hatred and jealousy which I'm afraid you can see reflecting in all these posts.
Unlike me, Poirot is a master of words. He can twist and turn words. He is blaming Islam and it's followers and then says that he is pointing at the Terrorists knowing (and being told by me uptillion times) that "Terrorists Have NO RELIGION". He keeps on mixing up between "Islamic Extremists" and "Terrorists" I'll try to explain it again. This time read it slowly:
Believe it or not being an "Islamic Extremist" is supposed to be the best thing! as there is total peace in Islam and being extremists is supposed to mean that you follow all the commandments of God strictly which are Pray, give charity, respect everyone and spread peace etc.
Unfortunately these terrorists are termed "Islamic Extremists" which they are not and they are doing totally opposite of what God has revealed to the Holy Prophet. Which means they have nothing to do with religion.
So it is these terrorists that are giving the Real Islamic world a bad name. Next time be more careful linking someone with a religion who disobeys all commandments of a religion.
-
Hi Sajid,
You've explained that well! The only problem is that these terrorists CLAIM to follow Islam. :dunno So for those of us who do not practice Islam it is very difficult to know whether they are following the teachings or not. However, now you've explained the situation those of us on this message board will understand! It is very hard to get your head around when the media tells you every day that "Islamic extremists" have bombed somewhere. If only you could correct their terminology!
Religion is something that people feel strongly about, and I guess the terrorists take advantage of that.
By the way, were Pakistan and India united under British rule? And if so, how did that work?
SalD.
-
By the way, were Pakistan and India united under British rule? And if so, how did that work?
Well,
That didn't go well too. You know what they say "If you can't beat them. Join them." The British took over everything and Muslims and Hindus had no choice to join together and start the "Revolution of Independence" against the British which was successful and after about a hundred year the British decided to leave.
But before the partition Muslims led by Muhammad Ali Jinnah (The founder of Pakistan) proposed to live together with the Hindus and Mr. Nehru presented his report known as the "Nehru Report" to the British how the rule should be transferred to the people of Subcontinent. That report was an attempt to serve Hindu predominance over Muslims. Mr. Jinnah presented his famous 14 points which fairly secured the interests of Muslims but it didn't go well with the Hindus and thus it became clear that Hindus and Muslims are two separate nations and can't coexist. This lead to converting of the "Revolution of Independence" into "Revolution of Independence with The two Nation Theory"
History :bored true but boring.
-
Thanks Sajid!
Although it is true that history can be boring, it is very interesting when it provides the context for current political issues!
SalD.
-
It is interesting how one is called a demagogue, if one just expresses oneself with logic and clarity. :rolleyes Ah well, c'est la vie .... I guess I can't fight against everything.
Just like a little knowledge is dangerous, a little history is also dangerous. So, let us correct the history first.
Kashmir is a delicate issue. During the British rule, this territory was sold for 7.5 million rupees (app US$166 at that time) to a Sikh Gulab Singh. Tell me how would an entire Muslim nation feel if it was agreed initially at the time of partition of South Asian Subcontinent that all Muslim majority areas will become Pakistan but Gulab Singh fled to India and asked for the armed forces to take over the Muslim majority Kashmir. Ever since Indians ramble that Kashmir is "Their" property.
The bit about Gulab Singh is correct .... the British did "sell" the Kingdom of Kashmir to Gulab Singh for his help and his army in helping defeat the previous king of Kashmir. But, it was similar to what the British did in Afganistan and many other princely states in India. Appoint a quisling to govern the state in their name and just collect the taxes. This was not unique to Kashmir. Less than 30% of undividived India was governed directly by the British. The rest were governed by princes, appointed by her majesty! So Kashmir was not unique in that sense. This is the first point.
Second, at independence, ALL the princely states were given the choice of remaining independent, joining India or joining Pakistan. The king of Kashmir (not Gulab Singh, btw) decided to remain independent. India and Pakistan signed a standstill agreement that neither would try to change this status by any means. However, in June 1948 Pashtun tribals from neigbouring province of NWFP in Pakistan started crossing the border. Fighting broke out between the KASHMIRI army and these irregulars. The King received news that the Pakistani army were following the tribals (this is disputed by Pakistan) and thought that his army would lose the battle to these tribals. So he appealed for help to Nehru. His plan was to use the Indian army to defeat the irregular army, but remain independent. however, Nehru's home minister Sardar Patel refused to allow Nehru to send help (btw, Nehru was a kashmiri) unless the king acceded to India. This the king did (which Pakistan claims was under duress). A big contingent of the Indian army was then airlifted to Srinagar, which beat back the tribals, to what is the current LOC (line of control) [Interesting sidenote here: When India was airlifting troops to Srinagar, Pakistan wanted its Airforce to bomb the airport and also do the same. The English officers commanding the air force, however, refused. This led Pakistan to say that Mountbatten got Britain to side with Nehru in this conflict]. Nehru, being the idealist that he was, then promised a referendum to the people of Kashmir, under UN auspices, provided the kingdom was returned to status quo. Neither Pakistan nor India ever withdrew their armies from Kashmir, rendering the referendum infructuous (at least, in my opinion).
What is forgotten by some, though, is that Sheikh Abdullah, leader of National Conference, who was the most popular mass leader in Kashmir wanted Kashmir to join SECULAR India, and not theocratic Pakistan (many historians believe this was the reason for the tribal incursion). Between India's independence and the breakup of Kashmir, the Sheikh led a satyagraha (peaceful movement) against the King demanding democracy and an union with India (this is document fact by historians). Even after the breakup, the Sheikh, who was democratically elected the chief minister of Kashmir for decades, tried to integrate Kashmir with India as far as he could. It was truly unfortunate that he was not fully trusted by some of PM Indira Gandhi's (daughter of Nehru) colleagues. The "so-called fight for independence" only started after the death of Sheikh Abdullah and the splintering of his National Conference party. Indian politicans have also been guilty of step motherly treatment to Kashmir. Although, the militants got a lot of external support, the initial cause was local anger at the complete lack of development in the eighties, for which Delhi can blame no one but itself. If Delhi had poured in quarter of the money pre-1989 for development, that it did post-1989 to fight the militants, it may never have had to fight them in the first place.
[Sidenote: this is not history as taught in Indian schools. In fact, many of my fellow country men will take me to task for some of my statements above. This based on a lot of reading that I have done - books on Kashmir, written by Indian, Pakistani and independent historians. Hopefully, some will now accept I am no jingoistic, sabre-rattler!]
Before the British rule, the Subcontinent was ruled by Muslim Kings known as the Mughals. It is quite likely that being ruled by them for hundreds of years, the Hindus developed a sort of jealousy and at the time of departure of the British, the Hindus tried their level best to prevent the partition and requested the transfer of entire rule to the majority Hindus. Of course that couldn't happen since Muslim and Hindu lifestyle and religion is poles apart and couldn't coexist (which was the main reason of the fall of the Mughal empire as the Hindus acted as a Hippocrates and led in the invasion of the British).
Sajid, you are so funny. The mughals were invaders from Central Asia (nomadic, warrior tribes who were converted to Islam a few hundred years before), and conquered North India between 1350-1420. They then lost out to the English in 1700. For the thousands of years before 1350, native rulers (read Hindu or whatever) ruled the Indian river plains between Indus on one side and the Brahmaputra on the other. During this period, great universites flourished, which attracted people from all over the world. This is not to say that the Mughal rulers were barbaric, although their roots were certainly less enlightened! Under kings like Akbar and Jehangir, the arts and sciences continued to flourish, and hindus were not persecuted. This changed with the 10th Mughal Emperor, Aurangzeb, who was a zealot and tried to foist a theocratic, islamic state upon multi-cultural India. People revolted and the mughal empire started disintegrating. This is what allowed the English a foothold in India. The fact that Aurangzeb's army and treasury were dissipated by fighting Hindu rebels, who would not live in a theocratic state. One of these rebels, Shivaji, then went on to establish a large empire himself. Another point for would be historians, the whole of India has never been governed from Delhi, until the British. Prior to that, southern India typically was previously governed by the Chola kings of Tamil nadu, Shivaji and his Maratha kings of Maharashtra, Tipu Sultan of Mysore, etc. So, the concept of India is actually, relatively new.
Anyway, so when India was fighting for freedom from the British, it was to establish a secular India. But, this was not acceptable to the Muslim league, as it felt it would never get a fair share of power in an undivided India. So, they first wanted electoral seats to be created on the basis of community. When this was rejected by the Congress, they pressed for partition. But, here is the supreme irony of the partition. More muslims chose to live on in secular, republican India (and still do) than in theocratic Pakistan (India, btw, has the second largest muslim population in the world, after Indonesia). And, this is why Kashmir is so important to Pakistan. If muslim majority Kashmir chooses to be in peace with India, then that undermines the basis for creating Pakistan.
Now even with Pakistan in existence, the Hindus still have the same hatred and jealousy which I'm afraid you can see reflecting in all these posts.
Heck, no, we are not jealous and we do not hate you. We would just like to be left alone to develop our country.
Unfortunately these terrorists are termed "Islamic Extremists" which they are not and they are doing totally opposite of what God has revealed to the Holy Prophet. Which means they have nothing to do with religion.
Ok, I believe you. These terrorists are no part of your peaceful Islamic culture. Then, how is it that, your religious leaders never denounce these people in public, from a pulpit or issue a fatwa. After all, these terrorists are profaning the religion they hold sacred. And, they have been mighty quick to issue fatwas on more trivial issues in the past. This is what really puzzles me.
-
but Washinton DC is the capitol of the US and not some annexed territory.
How about the states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, which were annexed by the USA (bet many did not know this)?
When do you guys plan to return them to Mexico?
Bias is a many-hued thing, Andy .... you should be careful when you use the word against others.
-
Think about the problems that could be solved with the money that is wasted on military budgets. Yet, here we have people blindly saying rah, rah, let's kick their butts!
I read somewhere that in the last 2000 years of human history, there have been only 32 years when a war has not been fought somewhere in the world.
Human nature?
-
If you said someone was trying to cut Delhi out of India it would make a much better comparison than saying Kashmir, which is an annexed area that has never been given the opportunity determine their own future.
You won't understand the Indian position (or the Pakistani one, for that matter) until you study how the modern countries of India and Pakistan were created out of British India and the princely states. You should read up on that first.
-
By the way, were Pakistan and India united under British rule? And if so, how did that work?
Ummm, Sally, there were no Pakistan and India under British rule. There was only a british india. But, I guess you meant hindus and muslims.
I differ a bit with Sajid on this, based on what I have read, and what my parents and grand parents have told me. I guess it also depens on where you lived in British India.
Muslims and hindus lived cheek by jowl in most areas, and many festivals used to be celebrated commonly (this still is the case in many parts of India). Since, the muslims had been converted by the Mughal invaders, and came off a common stock as hindus, many customs, names and behaviour were common too. In Bengal (which was also partitioned), the first identity of anyone was that he/she was a Bengali, a very distinctive Indian, rather than a hindu or a muslim. And, I believe this was true else where too, although the degrees may have differed.
I think the real divide started in 1930, when the British (allegedly) asked the Muslim League (which was started shortly before) why they were supporting the Indian Congress in their demand for freedom. And, what freedom could muslims expect in hindu majority India. Jinnah, who Gandhi used to call his right hand man and who was a closer associate of Gandhi than Nehru, initially pooh poohed this. But, over a period of time, I guess the poison did its work. Also, there were leaders within Muslim League who did not want to share power with the Congress, as they thought they would have to play second fiddle (the Congress had been in existence much longer than the ML) to the latter's experience. Then, there were those who wanted to establish a theocratic state.
However, it is again ironic that Jinnah, who was an atheist, led the foundation of a state based on religion. Mahatma Gandhi, until the very last, fought against the idea of partition. To the extent, that he said Jinnah should be the first Prime Minister of free India. But, he failed to carry Nehru and Patel on this. His colleagues said that he died of heartbreak, long before he was shot dead by a hindu fanatic.
The real ill-will between the two states arose after the actual partition. The largest exchange of populations, anywhere in the world at anytime, happened in Punjab (both Indian and Pakistani), as people left everything they owned and crossed over to their "own" country. The frustration and anger led to large scale riots and killings on both sides. This led to such a bitterness in that generation, which has been passed on in diluted versions to succeeding generations.
[Interesting side note here: The quote is attributed to Mountbatten, but may be apocryphal "We had 50,000 army men in Punjab, yet, hundreds of thousands died in riots, we had one man in Bengal, and no one died" Such was the power of that one man, Gandhi!]
Poirot
-
Poirot,
A fatwa is issued when you can't find a solution to a problem that is directly quoted in the Holy Quran or mentioned in the Holy Prophet's teachings. Like terrorism.
The US Muslim Scholars have issued a fatwa after 9/11 and thus stands valid.
Thus it is not correct to say that the Muslim scholars or Priests are doing nothing to condemn terrorism. At local mosques we hardly discuss worldly issues and focus entirely on religious teachings which does not include recipes of making bombs and their practical exercises :biggrin
-
You won't understand the Indian position (or the Pakistani one, for that matter) until you study how the modern countries of India and Pakistan were created out of British India and the princely states. You should read up on that first.
Again there is the glaring omission that the Kashmiris have never been given the opportunity for self-determination. You have often mentioned how one must stand up and speak against injustice, but you refuse to accept that these people have the same basic rights. Anyway you look at it, this is injustice.
And to address another issue. I won't defend what happened in the US where the entire country was stolen from the indigenous people. The doctrine of manifest destiny is completely repugnant. Is might makes right the policy by which we also should guide the future? Hmmmm...next.
Is war human nature?
I read somewhere that in the last 2000 years of human history, there have been only 32 years when a war has not been fought somewhere in the world.
Human nature?
Well, it is a "theory" tossed around by those who wish to justify and glorify warfare but I, for one, do not buy it. There are too many incidences of primitive people living without warfare to believe it has anything to do with human nature. In fact, if it were, I would expect us all to be engaged in mini wars all the time. The rule of law would mean nothing and we would have chaos if the nature of humanity was to be violent struggle. This theory may play out well in wargaming and among the military but ask yourself if you ever wished to be part of a war. And I don't mean sending someone off to fight. I mean actually battling an enemy yourself. Why, even my president who has been described as having "balls" made damn sure he avoided being personally involved in a war, as did his vice president and secretary of defense, along with most members of his adminsitration. (I'm not sure I want to describe any of them as having balls. More like gall, but there isn't a man or woman among them who would ever fight their own battle). There are many reasons wars are fought and greed for wealth and power are predominant, but I will never buy that it is human nature to engage in armed conflict. If I had such a low view of humanity I would never bother to be involved in anything that would help what must be a hopeless, worthless humanity. Maybe a few of you can be pleased that I do not feel that way and instead have given of myself to help others in life. I do not believe that when Jesus said "turn the other cheek" that he believed that humanity's nature was to be violent. I do believe that violence is learned and not nature. I've seen raising my own children that refraining from violence against children by parents results in children who do not hit their parents, as I see so many kids do. As they grow older and are exposed to violence in their lives, this may change to some degree but if your children are not exposed to violence when very young, they do not resort to it out of any instinct.
I choose to think for myself and not let others plant ideas in my head. Just because it sounds good does not make it true. Yes, we have a world where wars are constantly brewing but show me any war that is the result of the masses wanting to go to war without provocation by their own leaders. It just doesn't happen that way. It is the result of those who have no moral center and are willing to cause the deaths of many, including their own people, in order to achieve their own selfish goals.
Forgive me for having some faith in humanity.
-
How about the states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, which were annexed by the USA (bet many did not know this)?
When do you guys plan to return them to Mexico?
Bias is a many-hued thing, Andy .... you should be careful when you use the word against others.
Excuse me? What bias? I said Vazirani's musings were comical, not biased.
And while you're at it, asking countries when they will give back, ask Mexico when they will also give their land back to the Native Americans. The Europeans stole the Americas and will be keeping it. Unlike with India, where they eventually had to give it up. Maybe from that perspective your part of the world has been just a bit more fortunate.
Much has been said about the deal that brought Kashmir into India but that deal was contingent on the never held referendum. Imagine if that referendum had been held. There might be no Kashmir problem today. Now it would be a huge problem logistically to even hold one in Kashmir, leading me to agree that maybe a referendum should be put to the people of both India and Pakistan and simply ask "is it all worth it?" Unfortunately, with the fear and hatred that has been planted by the multiple wars between the two, it might result in those people saying yes, as people often do as they vote against their own good. War may not be human nature but reacting instinctively to fear is.
-
Are we still going on about this song...Cant we just get over it and done with..I am not in the mood of reading and reading over and over again about this..Its only a song for crying out loud..
I have had enough..I would also think that some have had enough too..
Enough said
Take care all
Smurf
-
Sorry I didn't post a reply to Poirot's post completely last night and just answered one little query. I have other important things to tend to rather than engage in an endless mortal kombat which could continue till The Trumpet blows. I was getting late for the night's prayer and last night was a special one for us Muslims.
Anyway, Gulab Singh or any other king(Hari Singh or whatever) didn't do what the majority of population (Muslim) wanted and fled to India.
Speaking of Sheikh Abdullah and especially his son Farooq Abdullah who is a puppet of India; has no intention represent the interests of Muslims in Kashmir.
I have a lot to say about "So called" Muslims such as King Akbar as they were the worst thing that happened to Islam.
:yawn :bored This thread is getting real old really fast. Neither your rambling will solve the Kashmir issue nor my defend will remove the label of terrorist from Muslims unless the persons responsible do something about it.
Believe me; I never want to reply to this conflicting issue or politics in this helpful forum as it is a fruitless and endless debate and not the place to discuss it. I only replied on Andy's request.
Smurfette you are right we will continue to go in circles if this thread is not stopped. Poirot, can't you find anything else creative to do like fly a kite or something?
-
I have a lot to say about "So called" Muslims such as King Akbar as they were the worst thing that happened to Islam.
.
.
.
.
Poirot, can't you find anything else creative to do like fly a kite or something?
That first statement explains a lot ... now I know where you come from, and what your "thinking" is all about.
It was surely a waste of my time trying to have a constructive dialogue with you.
-
Smurfett
you are right(LOL) tell them :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl
-
Smurfett
Wel if you are bored or fed up reading this segment, then please dont read it.. ..
but I guess you will not understand the history behind these two countries of the sub-continent and why we are so passionate about it.
People in the west live in a kind of Legoland and niether are they well versed with the various problems that we face on a daily basis.
And yes, we are here to talk about thalassaemia.. but how long can one keep on discussing about what your SF level is, or what are you doing about and so on and so forth..dont we all need a diversion at times?
This is a General chatter forum, and I think, we, as intelligent people can have healthy dialogues between us from time to time on any subject and not take things personally.
We should respect ones intensive knowledge or reading on a subject - a subject which has in recent times taken gigantic proportions and it is no more a matter of these two countries but for the world at large. And I think all young people of the world should be concerned.
In fact, Pirots postings do give all of you a deep insight into India's political history and I am sure which many of you were not even aware of.. Internet links are not always the best providers of actual facts.. one has to live and experience a lot of things.
And when majority of the Americans still cannot even point out where Iraq is on a simple map.. :wink...
how can they understand what we are fighting for ?
So please, do not take things personally and make matters worse.. nobody here is out to get anyone or defame anyone.. and at times topics such as this do make very very interesting reading.
shikha
-
I didnt say that I was bored or fed up..But this thread has gone on far too long and I think I can speak for some in here that enough is enough..
I didnt take it personally but I think that some in here need to chill and not take things too personally....
I like coming in here and reading up on the posts but when they drag on they do become far fetched...
I am sorry if I have upset any but thats my opinion, if you dont like it..well its only a site and I dont personally worry about what others says..
Thanks
Smurfette
-
Are we still going on about this song...
Song?? What song?????
:rotfl
Poirot
-
Is this post still active?
I think I might just ask Andy to pull the plug on this post.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
Andy you have my blessings.
DELETE any future postings that is unrelated to the "SONG - KASHMIR (Remember it was all about a song)
I'd like to apologise to any one who was upset to any of the replies to my post.
And secondly, I'd like to apologise to the band Led Zeppelin who made a great song, and we've turned into a war zone.
We have killed a great song.
If I knew it was gonna end up like this, I would not of bothered posting it.
GET OVER IT...IT'S JUST A SONG!
It seems like we are all missing the point.
This is a thal website, where people come to meet people and make new friends from around the world - patients, parents and friends come here to read, write and view one's opinions.
I'm disgusted in some of the behaviour..Shame on you, and you all know who you are.
That's the main reason why I have not bothered posting here any more.
Kind of sad really.
We're here to help each other, not insult and hurt each others feelings.
In future when you want to post something on this website, can you just keep the politics out of it.
You're scaring all our new members away, and I'm sure Lisa wouldn't want that.
Remember Treat people with respect regardless of colour, race, or religion & beliefs.
And treat them, how you'd like them to treat you.
This site was intended for HELPING each other, If you think otherwise, then I think you've got problems.
PEACE
LOVE
NOT WAR
Regards
AD
-
Great post AD! :thumbsup
You're scaring all our new members away, and I'm sure Lisa wouldn't want that.
Remember Treat people with respect regardless of colour, race, or religion & beliefs.
And treat them, how you'd like them to treat you.
I couldn't agree with you more. Is this what we want new members, or even long time members, seeing as representative of what our group is? There was one thing I saw from Lisa that there can be no dispute about. Lisa had a strong belief in acceptance and tolerance and it's time this group got back to following those beliefs.
One thing that bothers me a lot about this is, while people are waiting for answers to posts relating to THALASSEMIA, many members who are very experienced and could offer insight into these problems that are raised, are instead consumed with politicial issues which have no relevance to this forum. Before you post about non-thal issues, please look at the board and see if there are issues you can comment on , and post something that may actually help someone solve a problem.
And if things get out of hand again, I will not hesitate to start deleting posts that offend.
-
And you can delete this post if you wish I really don't mind but I thought I might post it because the lyrics say exactly what war is ....a load of crap.
May all this bickering end on this site and lets start focussing on issues that are relevent to all here but not forgetting the general friendly side of things also.
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives
War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives
I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again
War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Ooooh, war
It's an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Aaaaah, war-huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it, say it, say it
War, huh
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, it's got one friend
That's the undertaker
Ooooh, war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life
It can only take it away
Ooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again
War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way
Ooooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
You tell me
Say it, say it, say it, say it
War, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Stand up and shout it
Nothing
PEACE >>>>>LOVE OVER AND OUT Miaki
-
Miaki,
I love that song! Has been something of a battle cry for me for most of my life. I know it would make all the armchair generals have to get new hobbies if we did away with war, but wouldn't that be a good thing? :happyyes
By the way, I love the lyric posts, as long as they're general audience rated....been hearing my own kid's music a bit too much lately. :banghead
And also, AD posted the song Kashmir while in mourning for a dear friend of ours who recently passed away. It had nothing to do with politics but instead was about the feelings he was experiencing. The response has been irrelevant at best.
We all really miss you Phebe. :'(
-
:candle
:'(
-
Thank you Andy .......I think this might bring back some memories ....(you slay me )
In this dirty old part of the city
Where the sun refused to shine
People tell me there ain't no use in tryin'
Now my girl you're so young and pretty
And one thing I know is true
You'll be dead before your time is due, I know
Watch my daddy in bed a-dyin'
Watched his hair been turnin' grey
He's been workin' and slavin' his life away
Oh yes I know it
(Yeah!) He's been workin' so hard
(Yeah!) I've been workin' too, baby
(Yeah!) Every night and day
(Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!)
We gotta get out of this place
If it's the last thing we ever do
We gotta get out of this place
'cause girl, there's a better life for me and you
Now my girl you're so young and pretty
And one thing I know is true, yeah
You'll be dead before your time is due, I know it
Watch my daddy in bed a-dyin'
Watched his hair been turnin' grey, yeah
He's been workin' and slavin' his life away
I know he's been workin' so hard
(Yeah!) I've been workin' too, baby
(Yeah!) Every day baby
(Yeah!) Whoa!
(Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!)
We gotta get out of this place
If it's the last thing we ever do
We gotta get out of this place
Girl, there's a better life for me and you
Somewhere baby, somehow I know it
We gotta get out of this place
If it's the last thing we ever do
We gotta get out of this place
Girl, there's a better life for me and you
Believe me baby
I know it baby
You know it too
Enjoy Andy.............Miaki
-
Love that song...
Sung by The Animals.
But I think I like The Angels' version better
-
Ahhhh.....Miaki....the song I requested as my grammar school graduation song. :rotfl Great choice!!! :biggrin
-
I love all the songs, especially "What is war good for, absolutely nothing." But the rest of the posts actually made me a bit sad. I don't tend to take a backward step too often in life, often to my own detriment, but intractable, unreasonable apparently irreconcilable conflict leaves me gob smacked in both its inherent intransigence and utter pointlessness. I have a somewhat unique view on religious conflict as I am an Anglo Australian of no overpowering spiritual beliefs who married into a Muslim family.
I was treated very well by most members of my wife’s immediate and extended family and rather poorly by a minority, but I suspect this would have been the case had I married into any other family at all as conflict and disagreements go hand in hand with our own flawed humanity. It makes us all feel a little safer to cling to certain ideals, flags, religions or whatever to justify our fears and nurse our insecurities thusly reinforcing the control our societies seek to impose.
I remember not so very long ago the Muslim Mujahhadin in Afghanistan were lauded around the Western World as outstanding freedom fighters and holy warriors against the dreaded Soviet threat. They were even given access to one of the most alarmingly effective weapons in the Western world in the US Stinger missile which is parcelled out on a very limited basis even today. Yet with the collapse of the Soviet Union the world sadly seemed to search for a new bogey man, finding so called "Islamic extremists" to fit the bill. But I find the parallel hard to accept. 16,000 + nuclear weapons = THREAT. A grouping of very upset, often disenfranchised people whose only real connection is acceptance of a certain religion are a problem requiring a solution. They do not constitute a threat in anything like the order of the old Soviet Union and dialogue could well serve better than war.
The best way to find peace in my experience is to relate to the person with whom I disagree. It certainly doesn't mean that you have to prove your point, or change their opinion or get the majority to agree with you to score a win. It simply means that you recognize each other basic humanity and relate on a level where you do have something in common and have a very good possibility of reaching an accord or even of finding a possible friendship buried within. This should be relatively easy here as we all have something in common...yep..Thalassemia. Either people with the condition or, as in my case, living with someone who has the condition. I know its an overly simplistic solution etc. but if we all give a little of ourselves and share that which we do have in common rather than duking it out over intractable differences maybe we can all be ambassadors in our own ways and have a positive effect on those around us, even in the small space of this forum?
I have been guilty off teeing off in the forum previously. Powered at the time by what I felt to be a righteous anger but I achieved nothing and even succeeded in upsetting myself whats more. Anger and self righteousness seldom achieve anything else.
So peace all, and thanks for the songs :wink
-
Great post TruBlue! :thumbsup
It simply means that you recognize each other basic humanity and relate on a level where you do have something in common and have a very good possibility of reaching an accord or even of finding a possible friendship buried within. This should be relatively easy here as we all have something in common...yep..Thalassemia. Either people with the condition or, as in my case, living with someone who has the condition. I know its an overly simplistic solution etc. but if we all give a little of ourselves and share that which we do have in common rather than duking it out over intractable differences maybe we can all be ambassadors in our own ways and have a positive effect on those around us, even in the small space of this forum?
I couldn't agree more. We are a group of people representing so many nationalities and religions, yet we are bound by a common thread, and for the most part, get along rather well. I think most people would gladly avoid wars and I hope we can avoid them in our group. It's not why we're here.